u-he Satin or Slate VTM?

[kvaca]

but again - theres zero need to add hiss for the sake of "tape" realism...Massey Tepehead is prime example that its not needed at all

Massey Tapehead (to my understanding) is a compressor, that is aiming at the "tape head compression" aspects. It is by no means a tape machine.

so now its clear to me that you actually never tested it...

[kvaca]

- we can make the hiss control go down to -120 or lower (although I find it ridicolous and counter-productive, but anyway)
- we will think about auto-mute for the hiss control (doesn't mean we do it, at this stage)

please, do it!!

[Urs]

- we can make the hiss control go down to -120 or lower (although I find it ridicolous and counter-productive, but anyway)
- we will think about auto-mute for the hiss control (doesn't mean we do it, at this stage)

please, do it!!

We'll have a meeting on Monday where we'll discuss options.

I'm not sure about "auto-mute". It sounds intuitively like an ideal solution because it is what other tape sims have, and it sounds like a quick & dirty fix. OTOH we might find a solution that is even better.

[Bronto Scorpio]

It's also not really difficult to simply add a gate plugin after Satin, which should solve the "problem".

Cheers
Dennis

[kvaca]

- we can make the hiss control go down to -120 or lower (although I find it ridicolous and counter-productive, but anyway)
- we will think about auto-mute for the hiss control (doesn't mean we do it, at this stage)

please, do it!!

We'll have a meeting on Monday where we'll discuss options.

I'm not sure about "auto-mute". It sounds intuitively like an ideal solution because it is what other tape sims have, and it sounds like a quick & dirty fix. OTOH we might find a solution that is even better.

thanks for your interest...and also please consider that the best solution = hiss ON/OFF switch

[Spitfire31]

Can we lay this eternal 'sub thread' to rest now? It's hisstory, guys.

Maybe, just maybe, there's something to share about the other aspects of Satin?

/Joachim

[Urs]

thanks for your interest...and also please consider that the best solution = hiss ON/OFF switch

I don't think it is that easy.

The noise floor may also have an influence on the harmonic distortion, just like the bias oscillator has. A bit of noise floor may contribute to "even harmonics" in the nonlinear elements and thus be part of the "warmth" in the tape sound. In case of which an on/off switch may be crippling the effect.

This has to be carefully thought about before we committ to a decision.

[dalor]

I'm not experienced with tape machines at all but maybe the noise level could dynamically adjust to the input level? No input signal = no noise, full 0db signal = -40db noise floor max. So lower input signals have lower noise floor? Either way these guys know what they're doing.

[nilhartman]

I loooooooove Satin the way it is, fantastic job Urs and team !

I've demoed/owned all native tape emus, have been using VTM since its release on my 2buss... and Satin just works better on my music. I love how, to my ears, it merges with the audio, enhancing/shaping it instead of painting it, if that make any sense.

About the hiss : I think it sounds great, and I surprise myself dialing it up instead of turning it down as I often do with plug-in's with such a feature.

Urs, what about some kind of optional noise-floor dial in Diva as well ?

Oh and the lock feature is super useful, that's clever when creating patch variations !

[Compyfox]

but again - theres zero need to add hiss for the sake of "tape" realism...Massey Tepehead is prime example that its not needed at all

Massey Tapehead (to my understanding) is a compressor, that is aiming at the "tape head compression" aspects. It is by no means a tape machine.

so now its clear to me that you actually never tested it...

Couldn't, as it was previously Mac only, and then I lost interest.

I'm not experienced with tape machines at all but maybe the noise level could dynamically adjust to the input level? No input signal = no noise, full 0db signal = -40db noise floor max. So lower input signals have lower noise floor? Either way these guys know what they're doing.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but tapes didn't work this way.
And the behavior you're talking about is a load of work to implement. If it's even possible.

You're talking about "adaptive" noise, which behaves like a synth.


This whole drama went downhill due to the fact that some "like" the noise, which is part of old machines and to be expected (as mentioned by Urs, noise also has influence on the tape behavior). While others insist on modern days and simply want to see the limitations/imperfections gone. (which is understandable to a certain extend!)

That and not understanding that it's normal that noise is adding up, and that specs for old tape machines were (probably) measured on a per-channel basis rather than the whole machine. Which adds even more to the confusion as to how clean a tape machine really is.



The solution is really, really simple:

It's also not really difficult to simply add a gate plugin after Satin, which should solve the "problem".

Quoted and highlighted to make it aware to the masses!

Even wrote that over and over in here, and over in the other thread inthe U-HE subsection:

With hosts that have nearly infinite insert slots, and access to an unlimited ammount of plugins (as long as the CPU is holding up) - do we even need to care these days that we wasted one insert for a gate post a tape machine?!

Both Urs and Sascha said several times by now, that they will debate this tomorrow (Monday) at their meetups, and then decide what to go for - what's possible.

I redirect you towards my measurement tables (which can be found here) again, and ask you to realize, that this is totally normal behavior. You wouldn't notice it in a dense mix, neither would you if your signals are being properly leveled in.

You do notice it on stopped playback however - but again, this can be solved with a gate post each Satin instance, or for simplicity on the summing bus. Or even with further added console emulations, etc - which attenuate the high frequencies, and therefore the most prominent hiss noise.


Still, from the 5 or so tape machines I have on my HDD, SATIN is the one with the least noise. But it's one of the ones that can only pull it back to -80dB RMS (unweighted) per channel. And nobody expected that to add up on multiple channels...




Now if someone would have acourately modeled this organ I once had, along with it's high noise and crackles if I used the volume pedal, and it would be sold... oooh, I can totally imagine the negative critism already.

[Selfik]

- we can make the hiss control go down to -120 or lower (although I find it ridicolous and counter-productive, but anyway)
- we will think about auto-mute for the hiss control (doesn't mean we do it, at this stage)

please, do it!!

+1

[penguinfromdeep]

-1

Noise is part of tape machines, it wouldn't be tape machine emulation without the noise, just some kind of generic saturator

[J4R1O]

Hiss On/Off switch?

-1

[jkleban]

I know I am late to this game but I am interested in SATIN.... I have VTM and the UAD2 tape emu's plugins. I also have a 2 track REVOX quarter inch machine that I use for mastering (it has 15/30 IPS)..... the amount of hiss on the hardware isn't anywhere near the hiss introduced by UAD nor VTM with HISS on.... I haven't demo'ed SATIN yet because I have read all the threads about the HISS (more noise from users about the hiss than the plugin itself) and see the dev is going to address... so some amount of low level noise is probably accurate but so much in that you can hear it loudly isn't accurate.

So, let's leave it to the dev to come up with a solution and then I will demo and probably buy SATIN at the intro price.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim

[Compyfox]

What's the noise floor (in RMS!) of the REVOX?

Go a couple of posts up, there is a link in my post to a noise floor chart. Though keep in mind SATIN can be adjusted down to -85dB RMS with the hiss knob alone. Even further down if you additionally reduce the Asperity (tape noise).

But having a lower noise floor then the actual hardware is unrealistic IMO.

Hence my Q what the REVOX specs are.