KVR Audio

yevster · Post by **yevster** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:28 pm

I'd used Sonar for years before jumping that ship, but for some disgusting reason I'm still excited.

Clearly, there's been some emphasis on usability and stability in the past couple of releases, even if that mission is not 100% fulfilled (is it ever?). Also, the X2 release has had the shortest time between the product release and the demo release that I can remember.

If I'm not mistaken, Sonar lead the industry with the integrated effects rack concept (what Cakewalk calls "ProChannel"), which has since been picked up in Cubase and Logic.

So I wouldn't dismiss a new release from Cakewalk as buggy and/or insignificant out of the gate. Use it or not, this product can and does make a dent in the biz.

yevster · Post by **yevster** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:33 pm

hibidy wrote: @speculation: Other than a paid bug fix (with of course many new ones introduced) I expect very little from this update. It's bloated to the max already.

I agree, in terms of bloat. Some cleanup of old plugins is definitely in order. My guess is, as soon as ProChannel is rolled out to all editions (which it should be, since it's now Cakewalk's platform for selling add-ons), some deprecation of those dozens of legacy plugins will follow.

That said, every release in the past has introduced a significant number of new features (which cannot be said for some of its competition... ahem... Logic... ahem).

budweiser · Post by **budweiser** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:41 pm

^^ Logic, unlike sonar, is... ahem... stable... ahem.

yevster · Post by **yevster** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:05 am

Logic, unlike Sonar, ahem, has to support a very finite set of hardware, and runs on an OS where audio is not an afterthought. I've had my fair share of issues with Sonar, but as I went on to other DAWs on Windows, I've had no fewer issues.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:12 am

budweiser wrote:^^ Logic, unlike sonar, is... ahem... stable... ahem.

Yeah, but it requires a really overpriced and under-performing dongle

yevster · Post by **yevster** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:25 am

FWIW, I'm not sure the release of X3 is imminent.

Cakewalk is currently running a 50% off upgrades sale. Don't let the word "upgrade" fool you - there's presently an "upgrade" for "any registered cakewalk customer" to get X2 Producer for $199. And you can become a "registered customer" just by downloading one of their free plugins.

If Cakewalk were to release X3 this week or next week, pretty much everyone who buys at 50% off will fall into a grace period. Cakewalk has been doing grace periods for as long as I can remember, and never has a there been a sale that would fall within a grace period.

The upgrade sale ends on September the 20th, so the grace period will start no earlier than September 21st. Chances are, we'll see a release sometime in October.

MF has seriously jumped the gun here.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:42 am

I bought x2 on 9/29/12.

So, I still believe by the end of the month it will be out.

ATS · Post by **ATS** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:00 am

Man I just bought X2

DubGusset · Post by **DubGusset** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:11 am

hibidy wrote:
budweiser wrote:^^ Logic, unlike sonar, is... ahem... stable... ahem.
Yeah, but it requires a really overpriced and under-performing dongle

Gee i've never heard that joke before.

ATS · Post by **ATS** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:29 am

DubGusset wrote:
hibidy wrote:
budweiser wrote:^^ Logic, unlike sonar, is... ahem... stable... ahem.
Yeah, but it requires a really overpriced and under-performing dongle
Gee i've never heard that joke before.

yeah, never gets old

pc2000 · Post by **pc2000** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:46 am

yevster wrote:
hibidy wrote: @speculation: Other than a paid bug fix (with of course many new ones introduced) I expect very little from this update. It's bloated to the max already.
I agree, in terms of bloat. Some cleanup of old plugins is definitely in order. My guess is, as soon as ProChannel is rolled out to all editions (which it should be, since it's now Cakewalk's platform for selling add-ons), some deprecation of those dozens of legacy plugins will follow.

That said, every release in the past has introduced a significant number of new features (which cannot be said for some of its competition... ahem... Logic... ahem).

Personally, I don't consider plug-ins as being bloat considering that you have a choice as to whether or not you install those plug-ins during installation. Most of them are already installed from previous versions of Sonar since it's a shared folder they're in. The core of the program hasn't really changed. Basically it has received GUI updates and some other improvements and tools, but when you look at very old versions of Sonar and Music creator,(which I still have installed) you'll find that a lot of the core legacy functions are still in place, thus the reason for many bugs still existing IMO. The program is still finicky about what drivers it will use without issue. Still haven't managed to get ASIO drivers to work with this program, no matter what version of Sonar I've used. I can only successfully use WDM drivers. I have no issues using ASIO drivers in other programs.

One of the biggest legacy aspects of Sonar is the fact that midi clips are merely stacked on top of each other and hasn't been updated to offer as an option: to record merged midi into a single clip. I've learned that some well seasoned users of Sonar prefer the stacked midi clip legacy, but users of other DAWS that are used to every major and minor modern DAW that exist-that records merged midi, finds this irritating- since you have to merge the stacked clips after the fact if you want a unified performance in a single clip. You have to merge if you plan on using the clips as groove clips! This is a cumbersome way to work if you produce urban style music.

It's other constant issues that's pointless to mention since many seasoned users don't use those functions anyway, which is probably the reason certain things never get updated. The added bells and whistles don't mean anything when the core still needs updating. Reaper gets mentioned far more than Sonar ever does which says a lot. CW/Roland needs to stop putting all their eggs only into Sonar and start offering other programs geared towards DJ-ing, urban and electronic music production . A lot of users of Kinetic 1&2 begged for a version 3 with more advanced features and tools and were ignored! Many haven't jumped over to Sonar as a replacement, they went to other programs like Reasons, Abelton Live, FL etc... Someone needs to smarten up and bring new versions of Kinetic and project-5 or some hybrid version of the two. They're practically begging for people to buy Sonar with crazy low upgrade prices. I won't be buying any more versions until the basics get updated.

pwal · Post by **pwal** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:13 am

can we have a bit of speculation as to the light/le/se versions of 3rd party plugins included to give perceived extra value? tia

yevster · Post by **yevster** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:28 am

pwal wrote:can we have a bit of speculation as to the light/le/se versions of 3rd party plugins included to give perceived extra value? tia

I doubt the perception of extra value is the reason they license third party plugins. I'd venture it's to fill gaps without diverting resources to plugin development. It's been their strategy for years - even the bread & butter Sonitus plugins are acquired. And Cakewalk has always shipped 3-rd party guitar amps (Revalver, Guitar Rig, TH2), reverb (Lexicon Pantheon, Breverb), the Kjaerhus Vintage Channel plugin...

If the prochannel models of recent years (the SSL compressor, the 1176, the LA2A) were developed in house, I'd say this is a sign of them picking up slack in the effect department. And, BTW, I'm not sure in what way Breverb and R-Mix were "le" editions except that hey only worked inside Sonar.

Mind you, I'm not a fanboy... I've been off Sonar for over a year, just feel like CW gets a bad rap sometimes.

pwal · Post by **pwal** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:36 am

yes they always throw stuff in, so this time it'll be... some of the pc modules? something out of left-field like wusik 4000? i reckon there'll certainly be more loops.

yevster · Post by **yevster** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:46 am

pwal wrote:yes they always throw stuff in, so this time it'll be... some of the pc modules? something out of left-field like wusik 4000? i reckon there'll certainly be more loops.

If anything, I'm guessing it will be some subset of this: http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/VKFX/

Aside from ProChannel, they don't really have a particularly attractive or current platform for sample content (Dimension Pro) or drums (Session Drummer). A few more patches licensed from DSF won't create any additional perception of completeness. There are already more loops on the Beatscape disc than anyone knows what to do with, so I doubt it's that.

The logical thing for them to do would be to advance the ProChannel platform: fix the ergonomics, migrate the basic effects, spread it to all product editions, and sell premium add-ons. But, IMHO, Cakewalk's product decisions defy logic from time to time.

Cakewalk Sonar X3