KVR Audio

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:48 pm

Ok, admittedly, i haven't used Reason nearly enough to be able to judge it or RE's in any way. But still, taking a marketing parole so seriously, i don't know... you'll be a bad businessman not to say your concept is the best. You won't sell one copy if you say it is just average. So the statement has to be taken as what it is. Marketing, nothing more, nothing less.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:55 pm

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Tronam · Post by **Tronam** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:27 am

TheoM wrote:Yes of course, but he also flat out lies.. There's a difference.

A little bit of perspective perhaps. I've been using this program since v1.0, way back in 2000, and I think most everyone can agree that in the last 2 years in particular Reason has changed dramatically. They merged all the functionality of Record into it, essentially transforming the program into something tons of people have wanted for over 10 years with an overhauled mixer, good timestretching algorithms, autotuning, internal REX file creation and tons of other stuff I never expected to see. MIDI out was even incorporated, that verboten feature we all assumed would never come to Reason lest hell froze over. They also developed a brand new plugin format from scratch, which is not exactly the easiest thing in the world to do (if Steinberg's track record is any indication). It's never enough, though, is it? They've been busy bees and I see no reason to believe they're standing still or will ignore the issues with rack extension CPU consumption. I've gotten so many free feature rich updates and inexpensive upgrades over the years from the Props for this clever, fun audio program and I guess I'm just not as quick to toss them under the bus. Are they struggling right now? Maybe so, but methinks you radiate an unhealthy amount of doom and gloom, sir.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:31 am

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Frantz · Post by **Frantz** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:12 am

TheoM wrote:actually let me give a single real world example. Let's take a popular synth for instance. I will use Diva as an example. RE is such an inferior format, technically in every way, that it is simply impossible right now for Diva to be ported as s ingle module RE to work in reason. It would take maybe ten smaller modules all interconnected and wired together. So why would someone not want to just use one single product that can do things that ten reason devices combined can?

Thanks Theo. I appreciate the detailed posts especially on Rack Extensions. I haven't used Reason since version 4 so it's good to hear feedback from someone with hands on knowledge.

parma · Post by **parma** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:12 am

Firstly - LOL at the armchair financial analysts in this thread

Secondly - here's the thing with Reason: you're not going to buy it for the way it sounds, you're buying it for the particular workflow. I'm not saying it sounds *bad* but it doesn't bring anything new to the table soundwise. And I'm saying that as someone who uses and loves Reason for what it is. Workflow wise it is unique and I find it inspiring. I can see why some people would think the whole rack/cable paradigm is gimmicky but I find it fun.

Tronam · Post by **Tronam** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:55 am

Frantz wrote:
Thanks Theo. I appreciate the detailed posts especially on Rack Extensions. I haven't used Reason since version 4 so it's good to hear feedback from someone with hands on knowledge.

The Rack Extensions concept isn't fully baked yet. Adapting complex VST/AU instruments over to RE doesn't appear to be feasible right now, perhaps partly due to Reason's modular architecture and optimization hurdles that still haven't been sorted out. It's still pretty young though and I'm sure it'll improve. Heck, Steinberg's VST standard didn't even accept MIDI for a good 3 years, meaning no instruments at all and it wasn't until the 4 year mark before 3rd party plugins really started getting interesting, most notably with the introduction of Reaktor 1.0. Now *that* was a CPU hog that could bring any computer to its knees.

Smedberg · Post by **Smedberg** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:55 am

But RE is way ahead of other plugins in form of ease of use.
Everything is under the same roof.
If buying a new computer you just download the latest Reason version and sync your REs, done...
All with some VST and that have got new computer know what I mean...
But unable to transfer RE is its biggest drawback.
The SDK will develop with time.

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:47 am

Tronam wrote: A little bit of perspective perhaps. I've been using this program since v1.0, way back in 2000, and I think most everyone can agree that in the last 2 years in particular Reason has changed dramatically. They merged all the functionality of Record into it, essentially transforming the program into something tons of people have wanted for over 10 years with an overhauled mixer, good timestretching algorithms, autotuning, internal REX file creation and tons of other stuff I never expected to see. MIDI out was even incorporated, that verboten feature we all assumed would never come to Reason lest hell froze over. They also developed a brand new plugin format from scratch, which is not exactly the easiest thing in the world to do (if Steinberg's track record is any indication). It's never enough, though, is it? They've been busy bees and I see no reason to believe they're standing still or will ignore the issues with rack extension CPU consumption. I've gotten so many free feature rich updates and inexpensive upgrades over the years from the Props for this clever, fun audio program and I guess I'm just not as quick to toss them under the bus. Are they struggling right now? Maybe so, but methinks you radiate an unhealthy amount of doom and gloom, sir.

Hear hear

IncarnateX · Post by **IncarnateX** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:51 am

spaceman wrote:
Tronam wrote: MIDI out was even incorporated, that verboten feature we all assumed would never come to Reason lest hell froze over.
Hear hear

I concur on the midi out thing. People thought it could not be done and never would happen but it did. Now who dares to say that the day PH implement VST support will be the day hell freezes over (or the day Bitwig is released?)

I dare you.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:24 am

Smedberg wrote:But RE is way ahead of other plugins in form of ease of use.
Everything is under the same roof.
If buying a new computer you just download the latest Reason version and sync your REs, done...
All with some VST and that have got new computer know what I mean...
But unable to transfer RE is its biggest drawback.
The SDK will develop with time.

I don't get you? What kind of advantage is that? Same roof what? Like i am buying new computer every week? I am not. I am buying computer every three years +-, when i am buying i am buying most expensive one and for sure i am giving one day to install everything correctly (that include downloading and installing latest version of all VST which isn't actually a task similar to climbing on Mount Everest or something and obviously isn't something for which i will say is advantage or disadvantage of an app..)

Flandersh · Post by **Flandersh** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:42 am

chk071 wrote:Well, when you want to sell something, would you say "Well, it's a quite ok product, nothing special, but it is ok." or would say "This product is far ahead of its competitors."?

I have always sold my used hardware telling the customer they pay much more for it than it is worth, and I have never had a problem selling the hardware.

Flandersh · Post by **Flandersh** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:48 am

chk071 wrote:
TheoM wrote:Mux. Bidule. Within another host.
That's the point. When you do a comparison between the plugin formats, you have to think of what they can do out-of-the-box, not when using an external software to achieve equal stuff. Hence his argument that RE is a superior format.

VST plugins can do much more out of the box than what the standard is today. The need lies in hosts that can support more complex patching. Some hosts do today and other will probably do it in the future, and VSTs with more patching opportunities may be more common as well when that happens.

Smedberg · Post by **Smedberg** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:11 am

kmonkey wrote:
Smedberg wrote:But RE is way ahead of other plugins in form of ease of use.
Everything is under the same roof.
If buying a new computer you just download the latest Reason version and sync your REs, done...
All with some VST and that have got new computer know what I mean...
But unable to transfer RE is its biggest drawback.
The SDK will develop with time.
I don't get you? What kind of advantage is that? Same roof what? Like i am buying new computer every week? I am not. I am buying computer every three years +-, when i am buying i am buying most expensive one and for sure i am giving one day to install everything correctly (that include downloading and installing latest version of all VST which isn't actually a task similar to climbing on Mount Everest or something and obviously isn't something for which i will say is advantage or disadvantage of an app..)

I don't know how many VST you have but I might have more?
Files with challenge/response, Ilok, big libraries of like 600 GB of data.
I got a new computer one year ago and spent a week installing and updating VSTs.
From your comment I take for granted you don't have Reason6 or 7. Or many VST's

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:22 am

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Reason sound doesn't sell is not true