How to make this kind of chords?

[Aroused by JarJar]

So, stacked fourths on the tonic, stacked seconds on the submediant, stacked fifths on the subtonic, resolves to regular ol' ninth chord on tonic.

For me, it's not natural to think like this, though I'm not by any means saying you are wrong, I just didn't learn this way. But the second time through the pattern, the first chord has a minor 3rd, a 2nd.... no 4th I think. So you have to find some other way of explaining that anyway. The way I explained it will work for any chord, occasionally the chords might have stacked 4ths etc, most of the time probably not.

Also, I can't hear the first chord as tonic, even though it ends on it too. The 3rd chord is the tonic to my ear.

If you listen to pre-tonal (early counterpoint, late medieval) and Balkan music, you'll learn to hear for example F-C-G or F-Bb-Eb as tonic chords on F. The question is, what works for compositionally (analysis is a very, very distant second to that concern).

...I'm describing your transcription, by the way. My own analysis would be based on quartal/quintal/secundal harmony, but I think the "tonic" chord such as it is comes later.

[Fogost]

Guys, you've been really helpfull. never seen such a community before. I came to conclusion that i've got to learn musical theory before making some serious tracks.

[someone called simon]

Oh, I have no trouble with the stacked tones, I just mean that I hear Cm as the tonic chord, not F. After all, the melody note resolves on C.

I mean, its not a medieval or balkan tune, it's just an embellished western pattern/melody. My listening brain would have to do some serious work to interpret that as a piece of music in F, when it fits so nicely into a Cm sequence, with the melody reinforcing that. To me, it's just iv V i IV, with the V replaced by a tritone substitution. YMMV.

[jancivil]

@ jancivil, Yes, it interests me how these things may be thought about. Like, I hear this progression as an embellishment of what could be a simple folk(ish) tune.. Fm, G7, Cm, F major.

So to me it's Db because it's a tritone substitution of the G7, even though the F note is absent. And listening with headphones, there is definitely a B natural in that chord too (although should I call that Cb as you did? that confuses me.)

I was sure I heard it, but then I saw your estimation of the situation and I went WTFH and went back. I think Cb works but I think it's not actually played. It works for your story about it, which I at this point think is the helpful story for the OP but I'm really hearing something else there.
Yes, for your chord, the seventh of Db is Cb, it's basic spelling. Any seventh to any D is called C. Just as G# is no fifth to Db. Db F Ab Cb, just as a D7 is D F# A C.
Eb instead of F? I can't call it a ninth, that doesn't suit me. It's just peculiar and it isn't as... driving as bV of V of Cm would tend to be.

With the first chord, even though the 3rd is absent, the second time through it's clearly there, so I see Fm as the 'intention' behind that chord when heard on context of the repeated sequence. So, because I see these chords as embellishments of the simple sequence I described, and because the second time through the Ab note is heard, I would describe it as being some kind of F in intention.... I wouldn't call the first time through an 'Eb something', and the second time an 'F something'. But that's just the way I hear it and think about it...

as to the last statement, yes; it is treated differently in the solo intro than in the body of the tune, which I didn't really dwell in. My ears are really beat, and my mind isn't right for this at the moment. I am inclined to agree with the 'intention' of Fm over Bb, which is typical but the first instance of it is peculiar. There are a lot of sort of impressionistic moves in these choices, I find this quite sophisticated and subtle and I'm not used to such second guessing of my ear. I did hear the first couple times over the display's speakers, which wasn't the best move.

For me at this writing, the names for these are not as meaningful as for you, cf. JarJar, but OTOH I think in terms of the OP 'how do I make these?' it's the simpler story and there's something to be said for that. I could see pretty quick that I wouldn't want to tell a story about it for someone that wasn't already immersed in some things...

[Sendy]

Some great info here, thanks. Yes, I had piano lessons for a couple of years when I was a kid and the blues was one of the first things I learned. My approach to jazz (or rather, contemporary coloured) composition is basically to just add extensions to chords that I find appealing. I understand to stack four thirds and that the 7th chord can be thought of as 'stable' in jazz harmony. As my ear is very welcoming to what people would call discord, I'm drawn to a lot of peculiar harmonies, my favourite interval is the 2nd

You could say, I don't have so much trouble composing, as I do transcribing mine and other people's stuff, but I can do it slowly. I've always been a slow sight reader even though I can read music. But then, I make electronic, programmed music, so intuition, combined with enough theory knowledge to give me a hunch of what to do/try when things sound 'off', is serving me well, though obviously I'm not resting on my laurels.

[tapper mike]

When one adds a 4th to a 7th chord it's also an 11th. Neither the 3rd nor the 5th need to be expressed you can choose to add the 9th/ or omit it. Often times chords are merely implied.

Natural 11th chords can also be thought of as "over" or slash chords as they are usually treated in rock era material (mostly funk/jazz/folk/country) Most think of them as being merely inversions but they aren't limited to that. Nor are chords limited to four part harmony even on a keyboard.

If you take a simple G chord. G-B-D and add an A below the G you get G/A It's also an A11 chord with the third and fifth omitted which is the most common way a guitarist would express the concept (though not limited to guitar per say) Where as in a pop/rock setting you may see a Cm/A chord it would be expressed as an Am7b5 in a jazz tune. Same notes just a different way of expressing it.

Slash chords and extended chords are also not limited to diatonic structures. They can have chromatic elements as well to form tension. Such as b9, #9 #11 and b13. Sometimes when these chords are expressed on sheets they are literal and other times they figurative. When they are not literal they are there to imply the tonality of the melody against the chord. As well when you have more then one musician playing the harmonies one of the musicians may only play part of the chord structure while the other one plays the other part of the harmony.

Approach chords are used to connect keys in a progression and are most often used as a vehicle to return to the main key. In the previous page you'll notice that the first four measures are a I-VI-ii-V progression in Bb In bar 6 it has a direct modulation to Eb using a ii-V-I in order to return to the key an approach chord Ebm7 (Eb-Gb-Bb-Db) Ebm is not part of the Eb key or the Bb key it is a transitional approach chord If you drop the Eb from the equation you get Gb-Bb-Db which sits right between F And G and is very close to transition with two small half steps resolving back to the Bb chord. Unlike classical music in jazz you can resolve in half-steps up or down.

Contrary to beliefs otherwise McCoy Tyner while using elements of quatal harmony he did not strictly base his progression or harmonies from an idealized whole tone scale. Nor did he use the whole tone scale or quatal hamony as a basis for his melodic inventions. He would super impose both pentatonic and diatonic modes against his quatal chord forms.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Oh, I have no trouble with the stacked tones, I just mean that I hear Cm as the tonic chord, not F. After all, the melody note resolves on C.

I mean, its not a medieval or balkan tune, it's just an embellished western pattern/melody. My listening brain would have to do some serious work to interpret that as a piece of music in F, when it fits so nicely into a Cm sequence, with the melody reinforcing that. To me, it's just iv V i IV, with the V replaced by a tritone substitution. YMMV.

Oh, I thought you were describing it as you hearing it in F. And I don't mean it is something it isn't, or "should be" something it isn't, I was just mentioning different ways of hearing things. From a traditional "classical" viewpoint, it's "atonal", and I've even run across people who would still hear it that way. You have to keep in mind that Franz Listzt was considered "atonal" back in his day, and there are still people stuck at about 1830.

The reason I brought up quartal/quintal/secundal harmony was for people who want to write pieces with that kind of "bell-like" sound to the chords that this piece has. Regardless of whether it was conceived of as you describe (probably was) and whether it's heard that way as far as grokking the progession, you do see how it scans so elegantly as quartal/quintal/secundal, don't you?

There's a pretty straight link to that kind of harmony in jazz and Balkan music, by the way, because jazz players have been listening to and analizing Bartok for ages (and Bartok was influenced by the jazz of his time).

[jancivil]

OH good, it's not just me. I feel Eb pretty strongly but I didn't stick around it long enough to be real sure it ever got to I. Of any quality.
It's very interesting that way, particularly as I think the audience for this aren't going to be bothered much by this.

[Aroused by JarJar]

OH good, it's not just me. I feel Eb pretty strongly but I didn't stick around it long enough to be real sure it ever got to I. Of any quality.
It's very interesting that way, particularly as I think the audience for this aren't going to be bothered much by this.

Yeah, there are ways of hearing that don't hang onto a "I" but at the same time it isn't "atonal". I've gotten into arguments with other musicians who insist on hearing say a Balkan tune as ending on a half-cadence, or a modal church chant as modulating because it ends on re and so on, and insisting that they're correct, but there's a lot of music that just doesn't have a single "I" like common practice music does.

[jancivil]

I understand you completely. this is why my mind isn't right at this time to make sense of this as a jazz/pop kind of chord progression. I was convinced of Eb as a tonality but I couldn't pin down 'I' so I vacated fr. the premises.

the thing I just made does this kind of thing, a section begins in E Lydian flat seven (or 'fifth mode of B melodic minor') alt. with E Lydian but winds up in a kind of B dorian/B mel minor, a solo I played*. Then I made the bass support it 'harmonically'; but there is no device to make it 'modulate' and I don't perceive a change of focus until I start it again and hear the 'base' mode established, *the change of focus is organic rather than constructed/intellectualized.

It actually ends on an F#, the bass saying "A#!", and it is certainly no half-cadence, it's final. That the lydian aspect really dwells on A# as a plateau could be one reason it settles there satisfyingly. I've been involved in this kind of outside of western music behavior for many years, I feel pretty free of these conventions and this kind of <naming as primary meaning> trip. "analysis a distant second to what works"

[someone called simon]

Regardless of whether it was conceived of as you describe (probably was) and whether it's heard that way as far as grokking the progession, you do see how it scans so elegantly as quartal/quintal/secundal, don't you?

Yep It does fit very nicely, the first chords of the example.

And that 2nd Chord, on a closer listen I see there is a confusing aspect, as there are TWO chords, the one I assumed we were talking about on the 1st beat of the bar, then another on the 4th beat before the Cm. The first has a Db, the second a D natural. So that'll probably be why we disagreed on that.

And the first also has a G#. Notes of first chord are Db, G#, B, Eb, G. the second chord is G#, D natural and F. So the second one kinda contradicts the first in quite a nice fashion.

Regarding the key, I was also thinking if it were to resolve on a given chord, Eb would feel most natural, not sure why (rather than Cm.) I listened to the whole thing and it never does though, the sequence doesn't really change and it ends on F9.