u-he Satin or Slate VTM?

[Bathrobe]

Taking this a bit further. There could not be an truthful emulation of anything ever, because we'd need to create another universe again.
The closest to this would be to make a child.
Everything is an approximation, even a child, so everything is unique.
Digital code can be an 1:1 copy. But it is never run in the same place in this universe and will be perceived differently every time.
I guess it comes down to how you want to see it.
For me it comes down to is it good enough. U-He products are good enough for me and a bit more.

[Urs]

Urs: being personal as ever, I see. Even when I didn't talk about just your product specifically. It's hilarious, but also somewhat sad.

Great how you turn things around as it pleases you. It's really sad, indeed.

You're totally ignorant towards the computational models that exist, yet you call anyone ignorant who isn't.

[kmonkey]

Taking this a bit further. There could not be an truthful emulation of anything ever, because we'd need to create another universe again.
The closest to this would be to make a child.
Everything is an approximation, even a child, so everything is unique.
Digital code can be an 1:1 copy. But it is never run in the same place in this universe and will be perceived differently every time.
I guess it comes down to how you want to see it.
For me it comes down to is it good enough. U-He products are good enough for me and a bit more.

Just WTF? Digital code is digital code myfriend. Math is same everywhere. You can argue about opinion but math is a math - result of a math is not opinion.


Anyway i agree U-He products are top quality and i am sure u-he devs are disgusted by seeing how this thread is turning in to nonsense..

[sascha]

The closest to this would be to make a child.

I have two of these. Hooray, I'm qualified!!!

[dalor]

No TB-303s (or any analog synth) next to each sound exactly 100% the same and have their very subtle unique variations (If that's what Bathrobe is talking about?). I'm glad in the digital age we don't have this (annoying) problem.

[Sampleconstruct]

Sampleconstruct: (I may as well reply to that as well, why not) If you really think this is an "anti-mission" instead of a little commentary about the poor state of things and how things should improve (improvement, a positive thing), it's too bad that you're missing the point, but if you're happy with the current marketing fad, enjoy it.

I'm not happy with any fad at all, neither am I not into Satin and other "tape emulations", I was only referring to your posts I have read over the years which are mostly anti, negative, dissing, often personally insulting - that's all.

[Kindred]

Taking this a bit further. There could not be an truthful emulation of anything ever, because we'd need to create another universe again.
The closest to this would be to make a child.
Everything is an approximation, even a child, so everything is unique.
Digital code can be an 1:1 copy. But it is never run in the same place in this universe and will be perceived differently every time.
I guess it comes down to how you want to see it.
For me it comes down to is it good enough. U-He products are good enough for me and a bit more.

Just WTF? Digital code is digital code myfriend. Math is same everywhere. You can argue about opinion but math is a math - result of a math is not opinion.


Anyway i agree U-He products are top quality and i am sure u-he devs are disgusted by seeing how this thread is turning in to nonsense..

agreed - less minutiae-wank and back to discussing the ins and outs of this very interesting plug.

Urs - as per my previous question - has the buffer-size bug been fixed yet?

[Urs]

Shy has a point though.

No, he doesn't. I'll explain why:

All current "tape emulation" plugins feature basic distortion and EQ, and other features unrelated to magnetic tape emulation, like idiotic basic pitch modulation[...]

This the key assumption that Shy's rant is based on. While it may hold true for some tape emulations, it is wrong for others, including UA's, Satin and I'm quite sure VTM as well.

With basic this and basic that one can not create a model which has interacting parameters. What we have is a complete enough model that has *complex* (as opposed to "basic") interaction of all of its factors. We have a model of a tape head, a model of tape transport and a model of tape itself, including a bias oscillator and what not. These were created an calibrated for one "hypothetical" tape machine. But, as it turned out, its parameters could be adjusted to closely match the frequency response and non-linear behaviour of virtually any well serviced machine we threw at it.

There's a very big difference between slapping together a few "basic" eqs and distortions in 2 or 3 days, or working a whole year on an analogue model that doesn't fail when its parameters are tweaked independently.

This proves Shy's assumption wrong and renders his rant silly.

#----

For the record, we have never claimed that Satin would be the be all end all tape emulation. If all truth that's left of Shy's rant is that there'll probably be an even closer model in 20 years, then so be it. We're fully aware of that and I don't recall us claiming otherwise.

In any case, accusing us of lying based on a lie was the dumbest thing he could do.

[Urs]

Urs - as per my previous question - has the buffer-size bug been fixed yet?

Yes. As has the hiss issue and the lack of lofi options. Beta shortly, official update next week or so.

[sascha]

FTFY

(Quoting from the ' Satin 1.0 released! (testing 1.0.2 now)' thread in our sub forum)

Fixed delay feedback bug:

http://www.u-he.com/downloads/Satin/Satin102Win.zip
http://www.u-he.com/downloads/Satin/Satin102Mac.zip

this one should fix a bug where delay feedback could be noisy if the buffersize isn't fixed at a multiple of 16.

[/quote]

[whyterabbyt]

Sampleconstruct: (I may as well reply to that as well, why not) If you really think this is an "anti-mission" instead of a little commentary about the poor state of things and how things should improve (improvement, a positive thing), it's too bad that you're missing the point, but if you're happy with the current marketing fad, enjoy it.

I missed the bit where you said how things should improve. Was that when you made the somewhat silly claim that a particular level of emulation of the physical magnetic effects was the only valid level of simulation? Im only asking because anyone with a proper science background should be aware of how much of a fallacy that kind of assertion is.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[QuintaQuad]

A magnetic tape is covered with magnetic particles which, during the recording process, are arranged by a magnetic field and there you have the "tape recording". That recording is played back by the tape machine which uses a magnetic field to interpret the data from the magnetic particles. That's the huge oversimplification of it. The "tape sound" characteristics come from the mere fact that the data is stored/"printed" on that physical object in the form of particles arranged in a specific way.

Overdrive distortion from tape doesn't come from overdriving transistors, diodes, tubes or any other usual overdrive you know. It comes from a magnetic field impinging the particles on the tape too powerfully for them to get arranged accurately, resulting in a messy arrangement. Different types (as well as brands) of tapes and tape machines differ greatly in the sound of not only the distortion from overdrive, but also the distortion and overall inaccuracies which have nothing to do with plain overdrive. You don't have to have an obviously distorted sound (caused by overdrive) for a tape recording and playback to have "a tape sound". You get the "tape sound" whether you want it or not, from low amplitude to high amplitude signals. In fact, low amplitude signals have more inaccuracies, more "tape sound" (including the undesirable amount of noise) than high amplitude signals, and it has nothing to do with overdrive. Pitch inaccuracies which are not usually obvious unless the tape is of low quality, are not a byproduct of some plain instability of a playback device, they're the byproduct of the physical properties of the medium, and the "smoother" or "smeared" sound, which can usually be noticed more and more if you re-record a tape recording, are related to exactly the same physical property that the pitch inaccuracies are related to. Some tapes have a very obvious "tape sound" because they're not capable of storing the data in a very accurate way, and some have such high quality that they're usually indistinguishable from high-end digital recordings. Still, even in the most "accurate" tape recordings, the aural benefits of tape recording can be noticed when compared to a recording that wasn't stored on such media.

People here can keep their virtual laughs and trolling, but the fact remains that no current plugin "emulates", or "simulates" sound from a magnetic tape. No one has ever released anything that even attempts that. A real emulation would attempt to model the physical properties and phenomena in a tape recording and playback process. Current computers' processing power may very well be inadequate to handle a proper emulation of those things in real time, but so far, not even a low quality, half-baked implementation is available. I assume that it will be a very long time before real magnetic tape emulation, as opposed to a bunch of basic digital algorithms wrapped in a pointlessly huge graphical user interface, becomes available.

Yes, developers have been exploiting people's ignorance, plain and simple. Stay mad at me, if you want. I'm out, in any case, I don't have time for ridiculous debates.

First of all, I'm not mad at you or anyone else in this discussion. Never said or implied that in my post.

Your explanation of "tape sound" doesn't negate anything that I posted. Tape sound is merely a distortion (alteration) of the signal, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not a software coder so I don't know the process of emulating sounds but it seems that HOW it physically became altered is irrelevant, i.e. arranged in a magnetic field. What is relevant is the end result which I would imagine can be modeled digitally. I don't see how it's necessary to emulate the particles being physically impinged on the tape too powerfully, rather it's only necessary to emulate the result that it produces. Virtual emulations are never an exact physical replication of the process yet they can certainly produce similar results to a physical process.

The fact that your voice can be digitally recorded (virtually modeled) and sounds like your actual voice on playback is proof that sounds can be realistically modeled in the digital realm. I don't think it models your vocal cords and all the other processes involved in producing your voice. No reason why a tape machine's sonic imprint can't be modeled as well without modeling the magnetic field and particles.

Whether distortion is produced by transistors, diodes, tubes, or magnetic tape is not important to emulating the SOUND that is produced. Ultimately the sound is what's being emulated, not the physical object used to make the sound. If a transistor distortion can be digitally emulated then there is no reason tape distortion can't be emulated. It might require more work but surely it's possible.

Your statement that

"Some tapes have a very obvious "tape sound" because they're not capable of storing the data in a very accurate way, and some have such high quality that they're usually indistinguishable from high-end digital recordings. Still, even in the most "accurate" tape recordings, the aural benefits of tape recording can be noticed when compared to a recording that wasn't stored on such media."

makes no sense. If they're "indistinguishable" from digital recordings how can you notice additional aural benefits?

And as far as your statement that

"...the fact remains that no current plugin "emulates", or "simulates" sound from a magnetic tape."

there are many well respected engineers, mixers and mastering folks that disagree with you. It may be a fact in your opinion but that doesn't make it truly a fact. Highly opinionated people like yourself tend to confuse their personal opinions with actual facts.

Sorry you feel compelled to leave the discussion. Try not to take it so seriously...it's just a discussion...

[Tp3]

The closest to this would be to make a child.

I have two of these. Hooray, I'm qualified!!!

You have two SATINs ?

Why would you want that ??

[Urs]

But isn't it ok for him to think it sounds nothing like tape?

It's completely ok for him to *think* so. He however did something else: He used a construct of pseudo-scientific assumptions to prove that we're a bunch of liers, and that our customers are a bunch of ignorant people.

You, my friend, gave him credibility. That hurts.