u-he Satin or Slate VTM?

[EvilDragon]

You, my friend, gave him credibility. That hurts.

Indeed.

[whyterabbyt]

But isn't it ok for him to think it sounds nothing like tape?

Are you saying its that that people are responding to, rather than very specifically making an accusation of deliberate fraud?

Its funny that the smart aliasing thing came up. That was one of Shy's notorious attempts to convince people who actually understood the specific technology being discussed that there was some 'secret' to specific hardware which meant it could not be suitably emulated. The fact that this 'secret' was technologically impossible on that hardware was irrelevant to him. The fact that there was a simple, known explanation for the characteristics he attributed to this 'secret' was irrelevant to him. The fact that there was no known documentation or technical proof of the existence of this 'secret' was also irrelevant to him. The only thing that was relevant was that he had decided that this entirely imaginary 'secret' had to exist to explain the aforesaid set of characteristics. The existence of this secret was his proof for the underlying rationale of what he claimed was a ubiquitous failure to emulate that specific hardware 'properly'.

I kinda see parallel behaviour here.

[EvilDragon]

Its funny that the smart aliasing thing came up. That was one of Shy's notorious attempts to convince people who actually understood the specific technology being discussed that there was some 'secret' to specific hardware which meant it could not be suitably emulated. The fact that this 'secret' was technologically impossible on that hardware was irrelevant to him. The fact that there was a simple, known explanation for the characteristics he attributed to this 'secret' was irrelevant to him. The fact that there was no known documentation or technical proof of the existence of this 'secret' was also irrelevant to him. The only thing that was relevant was that he had decided that this entirely imaginary 'secret' had to exist to explain the aforesaid set of characteristics. The existence of this secret was his proof for the underlying rationale of what he claimed was a ubiquitous failure to emulate that specific hardware 'properly'.

Oh haha. LOL.

[jupiter8]

Its funny that the smart aliasing thing came up. That was one of Shy's notorious attempts to convince people who actually understood the specific technology being discussed that there was some 'secret' to specific hardware which meant it could not be suitably emulated. The fact that this 'secret' was technologically impossible on that hardware was irrelevant to him. The fact that there was a simple, known explanation for the characteristics he attributed to this 'secret' was irrelevant to him. The fact that there was no known documentation or technical proof of the existence of this 'secret' was also irrelevant to him. The only thing that was relevant was that he had decided that this entirely imaginary 'secret' had to exist to explain the aforesaid set of characteristics. The existence of this secret was his proof for the underlying rationale of what he claimed was a ubiquitous failure to emulate that specific hardware 'properly'.

Well i have to give the old chap a point here. How could you possible emulate the impossible ? That's impossible by it's very definition. It's like the opposite of a tautology,whatever that's called. Unpossible ?

[#rob]

How could you possible emulate the impossible ? That's impossible by it's very definition.

Impossibility, however, is only confined by failure to succeed.
Leave that behind, and impossibility becomes invalid.
Ask anyone who did something that was formerly regarded as impossible.

[J4R1O]

Back to my original question: u-he Satin or Slate VTM?

Yes, I did purchased Satin yesterday - and I love it! I first demoed it for about 1-2 weeks and liked what I heard: really good tape emulation plug-in that you can tweak to suit your needs. I'm not an expert what comes to technical stuff related to plug-ins and how they are coded, but as long as it sounds good, that's enough for me. I think u-he has done amazing job with this one.

I'm sure Slate VTM is a great plug-in, but I don't have iLok, so I cannot demo it. Also I think VTM is little bit too expensive compared to Satin (I'd also have to buy that darn dongle) .

Satin is my first u-he product I've purchased and it got me so convinced that next I'm gonna demo the Diva.


Urs, there seems to be some double presets in Satin's preset folder (29 in total). Is it ok to delete them? Example, original preset: RP A800 30ips and dobbleganger: RP_A800 30ips

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[EvilDragon]

Well, you gave him credibility in a wrong situation.

but i found his actual post on tape magnetics etc and WHY the plugin does not sound like tape fascinating.

Except he was talking out of his ass about why the plugin doesn't sound like tape. Nothing fascinating about that.

[David Else]

I think all these arguments if Satin sounds like real tape or not can only be answered by ABX sound testing. Anything else is just a bunch of chat. Even then people will have their own opinions, but at least there is some science and the results are out in the open.

The arguments against this will be that Satin is tape in general and can't be matched to a certain machine. I don't think this is important as it's just an overall 'does it sound like its recorded on a tape machine?' yes or no answer we are looking for.

I found this thread with examples of a dry digital drum track recorded at different volume levels onto tape:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-sho ... l-mix.html

I RMS matched the volumes, lined them up in Reaper and did try to make Satin sound more like the tape examples. I had quite a bit of success! Of course I was not trying to make it sound exactly like the examples, but the way it saturated and effected the transients was very similar.

Maybe a competition using all the emulators on these drums could be fun? *note there is debate on Gearslutz if these examples were doctored, but we will need to assume they are not (which i don't think they are)

Does Satin or Slate really sound like it has gone onto a tape? How are people judging that? How come URS/Slate does not put up A B examples (that i know of)? I am NOT bashing URS or Slate, but all this talk is just talk.

Only VOLUME MATCHED audio examples including real tape examples mean anything!

[Shy]

It's bad to feed them, but I'll refer to the off-topic trolling by Whyte: I maintain that DX7's design is great as well as unique, especially for its time, in that the perceivable aliasing produced by it is determined in a unique way by the operating sample rate, bit-rate, the design of the oscillators and other artifacts produced by them. I don't know all the factors but I don't have to be an expert to use my ears. The synth sounds good as opposed to lousy (which most digital synths were until the mid 90s). It's a smart design that results in a synth with a lower amount of annoying, unmusical artifacts, and a more musically fitting sound than anything else Yamaha had produced until much later. Clearly, they invested more effort in the design of that synth, compared to various other synths, which had very obvious and annoying aliasing. Its design is so good that even though it's sub-par by today's standards, the unique sound made by their smart set of design decisions, gives excellent results. Disagree (or troll, more correctly) all you want. If anyone wants to complain about an off-topic discussion, point it to Urs and Whyte, who resort to idiotic (I wouldn't mind somewhat sensible) personal attacks as opposed to discussing a topic at hand.

I also have to mention that Urs's claim that they "modeled a tape" is nonsense, unless by "modeling" he meant "not modeling anything, really". No one has to be an expert to realize that they never modeled anything related to the magnetic tape recording and playback process, it's verifiable by listening and even by simply analyzing the signal produced. You have a bunch of effects unrelated to magnetic tape emulation chained together, nice for you, if you consider that "complex". Hmm and don't complain that I said I'm out, your blatant lying required a response.

Also, yes, that's correct, I maintain that u-he, Slate Digital, UAD and others blatantly lie to their users and exploit their ignorance. "Ignorance" is not an insult at all, especially not towards users. If you're a bleeding heart, gentle soul who doesn't like my blatant attitude, I'm sorry for you. Well, not really, I'm not sorry for you. I'm just sorry that the "industry" is full of people like that, who sell snake oil. Hey, you don't like me "accusing" you? Well, who cares? My accusation is well founded. Stop lying to your customers.

Quinta: can't bother to answer that, sorry, but I recommend to read better. For example, the word "usually" is there.

[EvilDragon]

If anyone's trolling, that's you, Shy. Quote rudely and disrespectfully at that, too.

My accusation is well founded.

No, it's not. Madman believes whatever he wants to believe.

[Shy]

Yes, EvilDragon. Believe what you want to believe. My accusation is well founded. If you disagree, that's perfectly fine. Have fun calling me a mad man. Amazing, how you (supposedly) assume such a thing.

[EvilDragon]

It was a figure of speech. But nonetheless it's quite evident.

It's not that I disagree - it's just that it's quite obvious that you're so wrong it's hard to express in words..

[Urs]

Also, yes, that's correct, I maintain that u-he, Slate Digital, UAD and others blatantly lie to their users

Would you care to giva an example where I lied to our users?

Start here: http://www.u-he.com/cms/satin - quote any sentence or any statement that is a lie.

[Burillo]

...and yet we haven't heard anything better than "it's not modeling tape because it doesn't satisfy a requirement i pulled out of my ass".