u-he Satin or Slate VTM?

[bmrzycki]

I think you're failing to understand what a proper ABX test is.

I know it all to well, and I've seen enough people fail at it. Myself included.
I think I just do not count to the "golden ears" people.

Fail at what? Its not a test to see if someone can 'get it right'.

Isn't it kinda-sorta the whole point of double blind ABX to try to eliminate as much human bias as possible? Last time I checked science doesn't give a damn what we humans think is "right" or "wrong". "Golden ears" are precisely the opposite of ABX - it's merely a variant of the argument from authority.

Same goes for Shy. He spent a lot of time telling everyone:
1. I really, really understand this tape thing and it's special sound. I probably know more about tape than most people on KVR.
2. because I really, really understand tape (see #1) you should all accept my authority on the matter.
3. I tried Satin (and other tape plugs) and none of them sound like tape to me.
That sure sounds like the same argument from authority.

I honestly can't say if Satin sounds like tape or not -- I've never worked with tape. But I can spot a logical fallacy when I see one.

[whyterabbyt]

I think you're failing to understand what a proper ABX test is.

I know it all to well, and I've seen enough people fail at it. Myself included.
I think I just do not count to the "golden ears" people.

Fail at what? Its not a test to see if someone can 'get it right'.

Isn't it kinda-sorta the whole point of double blind ABX to try to eliminate as much human bias as possible? Last time I checked science doesn't give a damn what we humans think is "right" or "wrong".

Indeed. Its intended (over statistically significant instances) to test if two things are indistinguishable, not if an individual has a preference for one over the other or can guess which is which.

[Gonga]

I don't have those wonderful experiences. My experiences with tape were.....challenging

Hey - I didn't say I wasn't glad the first time I installed my free copy of Cubase (included with Alesis QS8) and installed it in Windows 95. The free version of Cubase back then was...rudimentary at best, but 16-bit audio through my Gateway ISA soundcard sounded better than any tape I'd ever heard - I saw the writing on the wall. The hiss on my old tapes has at least doubled or tripled in volume since then.

Now to be able to get that sound back with a few clicks...is pretty cool. It was the bounceback echo that created a time-shift for me. I'll be using the echo, the studio, the flanger - a lot.

[pdxindy]

Me? Actually I did find Shy's take interesting - my post is slightly tongue in cheek in response to his, er, bluntness, but if you take that away he does make a point, doesn't he?

anyone can make any point... whether it has any relationship to actual life is another matter... Shy's post is complete crap. It says all developers creating tape simulations are only marketing liars and are not making any effort to simulate actual magnetic tape and are just pretending. That is absurd.

[pdxindy]

Yes, developers have been exploiting people's ignorance, plain and simple. Stay mad at me, if you want. I'm out, in any case, I don't have time for ridiculous debates.

You the one making ridiculous debate by setting the bar so high. You may as well also say no plug-in has ever even attempted to model an analogue synth because it has not modeled each electron and the physical properties of each wire and connector. There is no end to this sort of argument. There is always another level of physical reality that has not been 'modeled'.

In a practical sense, developers work hard to make their plug-ins sound like the analogue counterparts they are emulating. I would say they are sincere in their efforts to make the best emulation they can with the available resources.

And it is the cheapest thing of all to come in, make no effort whatsoever, and declare them frauds. I think you are the one exploiting peoples lack of knowledge to make yourself sound like you actually have something meaningful to say.

[Tp3]

Same goes for Shy. He spent a lot of time telling everyone:
1. I really, really understand this tape thing and it's special sound. I probably know more about tape than most people on KVR.
2. because I really, really understand tape (see #1) you should all accept my authority on the matter.
3. I tried Satin (and other tape plugs) and none of them sound like tape to me.
That sure sounds like the same argument from authority.

I honestly can't say if Satin sounds like tape or not -- I've never worked with tape. But I can spot a logical fallacy when I see one.

Y'know, this whole hilariously ridiculous argument reminds me of the last scene from "Life of Brian"

[hibidy]

Uggg, this is still going on?

[J4R1O]

Uggg, this is still going on?

Yep, like a perpetual motion machine.

[elxsound]

Uggg, this is still going on?

Yep, like a perpetual motion machine.

Is that the analogue version or just an emulation?

[hibidy]

So I'm loving that the devs are listening to the customers but I don't understand the comment about removing some of the lofi stuff?

[Tp3]

Hey, I just realized the guy who runs patch lib is called Brian (Rzycki)

[kmonkey]

I also have to mention that Urs's claim that they "modeled a tape" is nonsense, unless by "modeling" he meant "not modeling anything, really". No one has to be an expert to realize that they never modeled anything related to the magnetic tape recording and playback process, it's verifiable by listening and even by simply analyzing the signal produced. You have a bunch of effects unrelated to magnetic tape emulation chained together, nice for you, if you consider that "complex". Hmm and don't complain that I said I'm out, your blatant lying required a response.

Also, yes, that's correct, I maintain that u-he, Slate Digital, UAD and others blatantly lie to their users and exploit their ignorance.

Dude, i am not insulting or trying to be smart. I am genuinely curious and interested, really and honestly i am: can you please post audio example of
dry mix and then same mix processed with your tape where i (or anyone else) can hear that obvious effect which no plugin can provide.

No matter how it seems i am honest by all means and want to hear it. Honestly.

Can you do that?

I am guessing here but i think many people feel/think/want the same.

[kmonkey]

Ok, let's put an end to this.



Satin was conceived the very same way. We obtained books like AGFA_Schallspeicherung.pdf and created a complete electrical and physical model of a tape machine. Unlike the olden days, we could use those formulae and graphs directly in our code, without need to build anything "real". After we implemented Satin, we could verify its fitness by testing it with real world signals, just like they did in the olden days. In other words: Satin is based on the same formulae as real world tape machines and thus it's based on the very same scientific model as those.

Now. If anyone says that we don't have a model of tape, they're just bullshitting themselves. It's the same as saying that the people who built analogue tape machines have used the wrong formulae.

But could it be that your model of formulae isn't exactly the right one? Note that this is normal question i am not trying to "say" anything and i am perfectly fine with Satin.

[Spitfire31]

I also have to mention that Urs's claim that they "modeled a tape" is nonsense, unless by "modeling" he meant "not modeling anything, really". No one has to be an expert to realize that they never modeled anything related to the magnetic tape recording and playback process, it's verifiable by listening and even by simply analyzing the signal produced. You have a bunch of effects unrelated to magnetic tape emulation chained together, nice for you, if you consider that "complex". Hmm and don't complain that I said I'm out, your blatant lying required a response.

Also, yes, that's correct, I maintain that u-he, Slate Digital, UAD and others blatantly lie to their users and exploit their ignorance.

Dude, i am not insulting or trying to be smart. I am genuinely curious and interested, really and honestly i am: can you please post audio example of
dry mix and then same mix processed with your tape where i (or anyone else) can hear that obvious effect which no plugin can provide.

No matter how it seems i am honest by all means and want to hear it. Honestly.

Can you do that?

I am guessing here but i think many people feel/think/want the same.

Why don't y'all just try to behave like grown-ups, stop feeding the trolls and put the lid on this endless cul-de-sac*? Huh?

/Joachim

* A road that leads nowhere.

[kmonkey]

Why don't y'all just try to behave like grown-ups, stop feeding the trolls and put the lid on this endless cul-de-sac*? Huh?

/Joachim

* A road that leads nowhere.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what i asked - given the situation here