The Best Drum Sample Library!

[Tubeman]

REALDRUMS and Drummic'A! are both excellent if a user has Kontakt or doesn't mind using it for drum stuff. The Noble & Cooley Maple kit in particular can handle ANYTHING thrown at it to do, It is perhaps one of my favourite kits available

I listened to Realdrums samples and I'm not convinced. Especially the hihats and cymbals are not very detailed. This where most kits fail always.

[Tubeman]

Again, is there currently an eDrum set (affordable) other than Roland's TD-12 (and up) series that does position sensing?

Even then, there is no L/R sample trigger, it's just one trigger. So why that much wasted HDD space just for "more detail" if you do not even use it!

I don't use e-drums I program them with a controller/keyboard or by hand.

You can always make it more detailed later after you play the part with whatever you choose ie. e-drums. Left and right hand hits make a huge difference on paradiddles and fast tremolos.

[Burillo]

i think it was in the BFD manual there was a passage about how left and right hand strikes don't sound different at all (in a blind test) and the only difference between those is that real drummers tend to make left hand (or right hand, if the drummer's a commie leftist) hits slightly lower velocity than other hand. i tend to agree with that approach.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

REALDRUMS and Drummic'A! are both excellent if a user has Kontakt or doesn't mind using it for drum stuff. The Noble & Cooley Maple kit in particular can handle ANYTHING thrown at it to do, It is perhaps one of my favourite kits available

I listened to Realdrums samples and I'm not convinced. Especially the hihats and cymbals are not very detailed. This where most kits fail always.

I made absolutely no mention of the included cymbals, Even though I believe them to be fully useable, I really couldn't care any less if you are not convinced or if you thought they were the best you've ever heard.

I was referring to the kit itself (I've used the terms shells to separate before but always got the 'what do you mean?' thing asked so I just don't bother anymore)

It is rare I use a complete set of kit pieces, hats and cymbals from the same kit they came from/were sampled from. However that is irrelevant. If you've had the pleasure to hear a Noble & Cooley kit played in person by a good drummer then you would know why I like REALDRUMS sample N&C kit so much (Still wouldn't bank on it, Taste is a very personal thing. Perhaps mine is not very good in your view but again that doesn't really matter)

Dean

[Tubeman]

i think it was in the BFD manual there was a passage about how left and right hand strikes don't sound different at all (in a blind test) and the only difference between those is that real drummers tend to make left hand (or right hand, if the drummer's a commie leftist) hits slightly lower velocity than other hand. i tend to agree with that approach.

Don't be silly, of course they sound different because the drummer hits slightly different spot with each hand as it's physically impossible to hit the same spot. The marketing people tell anything to sell their product. I assume BFD doesn't have them so they make an excuse.

If you have Addictive Drums (download the free demo if not), it has left and right hand hits. Make a really fast tremolo with left hand hits, then make the same tremolo with alternating left and right. Then try a PD: left/left/right/right. If you don't hear the difference then your ears are not trained enough.

[chroma]

Again, is there currently an eDrum set (affordable) other than Roland's TD-12 (and up) series that does position sensing?

Even then, there is no L/R sample trigger, it's just one trigger. So why that much wasted HDD space just for "more detail" if you do not even use it!

there's not one you can buy, afaik.

however, if you have the triggers, you can use something like a megadrum (which is kind of DIY but you can buy them prebuilt), or there are some VSTs (edrummonitor, or there was one I just looked at here at KVR and forgot the name, he makes the USB expression pedal) that can do positional sensing from audio. cheapest high-channel audio interface would be something like a tascam 1641, or if you've got a couple of free inputs on your interface, you probably don't need positional sensing for everything anyways....

[Burillo]

Don't be silly, of course they sound different because the drummer hits slightly different spot with each hand as it's physically impossible to hit the same spot. The marketing people tell anything to sell their product. I assume BFD doesn't have them so they make an excuse.

yes, BFD doesn't have them, but that's reasoning behind the decision, not an excuse.

If you have Addictive Drums (download the free demo if not), it has left and right hand hits. Make a really fast tremolo with left hand hits, then make the same tremolo with alternating left and right. Then try a PD: left/left/right/right.

again, as i said, it's not about the difference between samples - it's about difference between velocities of left vs right hand. e.g. it's the MIDI programming that has to account for left/right hands, not the sampler. i haven't heard addictive drums but i've heard superior drummer. felt that left hand samples were extra baggage and was glad to find out i'm not the only one who was feeling that way

If you don't hear the difference then your ears are not trained enough.

not necessarily. it may very well be that you're imagining things not implying anything, just saying that the fact that you're sure you hear something doesn't necessarily mean it's actually there.

and it probably won't matter in a mix anyway.

[Tubeman]

again, as i said, it's not about the difference between samples - it's about difference between velocities of left vs right hand. e.g. it's the MIDI programming that has to account for left/right hands, not the sampler. i haven't heard addictive drums but i've heard superior drummer. felt that left hand samples were extra baggage and was glad to find out i'm not the only one who was feeling that way

If you don't hear the difference then your ears are not trained enough.

not necessarily. it may very well be that you're imagining things not implying anything, just saying that the fact that you're sure you hear something doesn't necessarily mean it's actually there.

and it probably won't matter in a mix anyway.

LOL. Have you ever hit a real snare? You would know that the sound is different across the drum skin. It's a physical quality of drums with skin since the skin is tighter around the edges. Ask any drummer if you don't believe me. Also the microphones hear the sounds from slighly different angles/distance. If you don't hear difference between Addictive Drums' left and right hand samples then I'm sorry. Not implying anything, just saying that the fact you don't hear the difference doesn't mean it's not there. You can hear the difference in a good mix, obviously you can't hear much in a distorted and over-compressed mix.

[thecontrolcentre]

not implying anything, just saying that the fact that you're sure you hear something doesn't necessarily mean it's actually there.

Not implying anything, just saying that the fact you don't hear the difference doesn't mean it's not there.

[Tubeman]

Heheh

It's imbossibul

[Burillo]

i'm not saying it's impossible. and no, i haven't hit any snares. well, i did, but i'm not a drummer, if that's what you're asking. we can have different opinions, you know. i tried this stuff with SD, i never heard anything, my ears suck, too bad for me. i'm a happy BFD user anyway

[jancivil]

again, as i said, it's not about the difference between samples - it's about difference between velocities of left vs right hand. e.g. it's the MIDI programming that has to account for left/right hands, not the sampler. i haven't heard addictive drums but i've heard superior drummer. felt that left hand samples were extra baggage and was glad to find out i'm not the only one who was feeling that way

If you don't hear the difference then your ears are not trained enough.

not necessarily. it may very well be that you're imagining things not implying anything, just saying that the fact that you're sure you hear something doesn't necessarily mean it's actually there.

and it probably won't matter in a mix anyway.

LOL. Have you ever hit a real snare? You would know that the sound is different across the drum skin. It's a physical quality of drums with skin since the skin is tighter around the edges. Ask any drummer if you don't believe me. Also the microphones hear the sounds from slighly different angles/distance. If you don't hear difference between Addictive Drums' left and right hand samples then I'm sorry. Not implying anything, just saying that the fact you don't hear the difference doesn't mean it's not there.

I have quite some experience with a real snare. I am skeptical of your assertion.
The point you seem to be missing or are avoiding in all of this is 'blind test'.

It may be true that a less competent drummer is giving a weaker stroke with their non-dominant hand. The goal however is to produce consistency.
Certainly the edge has different tension and a different tone. It isn't addressed by BFD2 as far as I've seen and it could and I think it may be useful.
But, that isn't the argument of L vs R hand, which would be more or less the same/centered. Is it actually your contention that a LH stroke is necessarily on a differently tensed area of the snare? Other than a necessary weakness - which is going to vary subjectively I think - what is the real reason for a different sample, unless it is the objective criteria 'edge vs center', etc of the drum? What are we talking about?

I think there is a possibility of a placebo type of effect here.

"I assume BFD doesn't have them so they make an excuse." - a developer has to draw the line somewhere. This is going to double the amount of load, the size of the product and everything so one would have to find it particularly useful and they do not. If you can on the other hand produce a blind test that proves you can make this distinction consistently I think we'd have to agree with you.

[elxsound]

We just have to agree to disagree on this. I've never heard as realistic and good sounding sampled drumkits as the mixosaurus kits.

Are we talking full dynamic jazz or squashed to sh*t Metal here?
Because, frankly, it doesn't matter in a mix, especially if it's the latter!

Was just going to say the same thing... In a mix, it doesn't matter.

After years of drumming I can add that there are many nuances not captured in most sampled kits, but in a mix many of those nuances are irrelevant.

As for the 9 positions of a hi-hat... well, that sounds excessive, but I can also add that there are multiple places to hit any cymbal and get a different sound. This is an area where I wish more sampled libraries took the time to capture it, because the sound can definitely cut through a mix. Keep in mind that I'm talking about all cymbals, not just the hi-hat.

I just have to disagree on the "doesn't matter in a mix" part. Listen to bands with good drummers and you'll hear a worlds difference. Bad drummers get buried in the mix with drum samples. That is assuming you used ear plugs during those years of drumming?

Some examples: Danny Carey (Tool), Tim Alexander (Attention Deficit), Sami Kuoppamäki (Kingston Wall), Matt Zebroski (Alex Skolnick Trio), Stef Broks (Textures) or even oldies like John Bonham (Led Zeppelin) and Ian Paice (Deep Purple).

I agree with you on the cymbals part. Toms are under captured many times too which makes very fast tremolos sound silly. I think it's essential to sample both left and right hands with enough round robins. Since you're a drummer I suggest you listen to the Mixosaurus samples and tell me what you think.

Yes, I used earplugs throughout.

I should have explained more... Yes there are many examples of great drummers, or even tracks that feature great drumming, but one thing to keep in mind... that yes, with some exceptions, the various nuances of hitting different drums/hi-hats/percussion in different places often will be lost in the final recording... One reason to that is that in the recording, more than likely you're only hearing one hit, not a round robing of 12 different hits, not all 9 position. I'm not saying it's not great to have those round robin samples recorded at multiple velocities and at multiple positions... hell it's great to have options, but in the end many of that will still be lost in the final recording and more so in the final mix.

Now I know we'll still come back to disagreeing, but my take on a drum sample library is that I don't need a ridiculous number of samples, simply because there's nothing that will replace a great drummer recorded live and is featured in a track where the drums are prominently featured. That's just not what I expect out of drum library... ever.

Now the supportive drum tracking IS something I do expect a drum sample library to be capable of covering, but with this you don't need a massive sample library. Here it is irrelevant. IMO

[Tubeman]

i'm not saying it's impossible. and no, i haven't hit any snares. well, i did, but i'm not a drummer, if that's what you're asking. we can have different opinions, you know. i tried this stuff with SD, i never heard anything, my ears suck, too bad for me. i'm a happy BFD user anyway

There is always the possibility that SD uses the same samples for both hands which obviously don't sound any different. What you don't seem to realize is that it's not a matter of opinion. The sound is different and it's a physical fact. Compare this to when miking a guitar amp, move the mic 5 mm and the sound is different.

[Tubeman]

I have quite some experience with a real snare. I am skeptical of your assertion.
The point you seem to be missing or are avoiding in all of this is 'blind test'.

It may be true that a less competent drummer is giving a weaker stroke with their non-dominant hand. The goal however is to produce consistency.
Certainly the edge has different tension and a different tone. It isn't addressed by BFD2 as far as I've seen and it could and I think it may be useful.
But, that isn't the argument of L vs R hand, which would be more or less the same/centered. Is it actually your contention that a LH stroke is necessarily on a differently tensed area of the snare? Other than a necessary weakness - which is going to vary subjectively I think - what is the real reason for a different sample, unless it is the objective criteria 'edge vs center', etc of the drum? What are we talking about?

I think there is a possibility of a placebo type of effect here.

"I assume BFD doesn't have them so they make an excuse." - a developer has to draw the line somewhere. This is going to double the amount of load, the size of the product and everything so one would have to find it particularly useful and they do not. If you can on the other hand produce a blind test that proves you can make this distinction consistently I think we'd have to agree with you.

You hit the drum at two different spots which varies of course because no human drummer can hit the exact same spot every time with fast tremolos. However the mics are on one spot all the time and they hear the sound coming from slightly different spot. No drum skin is 100% same on both sides and you actually have to tune the drum with the tuners. The amount of tuners can vary between drums. There is no placebo effect it's basic physics laws.