The Best Drum Sample Library!

[Burillo]

Tubeman nope, SD uses different samples.

also, you're forgetting that round robin would basically produce the same type of variations that are seen with LH/RH samples. that is also a physical fact - because not only you can't hit exactly the same spot with both hands, you can't even do that with one hand.

[Tubeman]

Yes, I used earplugs throughout.

I should have explained more... Yes there are many examples of great drummers, or even tracks that feature great drumming, but one thing to keep in mind... that yes, with some exceptions, the various nuances of hitting different drums/hi-hats/percussion in different places often will be lost in the final recording... One reason to that is that in the recording, more than likely you're only hearing one hit, not a round robing of 12 different hits, not all 9 position. I'm not saying it's not great to have those round robin samples recorded at multiple velocities and at multiple positions... hell it's great to have options, but in the end many of that will still be lost in the final recording and more so in the final mix.

Now I know we'll still come back to disagreeing, but my take on a drum sample library is that I don't need a ridiculous number of samples, simply because there's nothing that will replace a great drummer recorded live and is featured in a track where the drums are prominently featured. That's just not what I expect out of drum library... ever.

Now the supportive drum tracking IS something I do expect a drum sample library to be capable of covering, but with this you don't need a massive sample library. Here it is irrelevant. IMO

Our drummer used to play without earplugs many times during the ten years we played and he doesn't have that good hearing anymore. He plays e-drums now anyway.

At 399$ Mixosaurus sure is cheaper than renting a quality studio with quality drums, a quality recorder and a quality drummer. Full Kontakt costs the same amount. Throw in a 150 GB SDD and you're set (I believe it was originally shipped with an SSD option too). I'm not saying you all should buy it, I'm just saying it sounds better. If someone doesn't hear the difference it's still better to those who do hear the difference.

[Tubeman]

Tubeman nope, SD uses different samples.

also, you're forgetting that round robin would basically produce the same type of variations that are seen with LH/RH samples. that is also a physical fact - because not only you can't hit exactly the same spot with both hands, you can't even do that with one hand.

There is still a difference between hitting the same spot with one hand compared to hitting two spots with two hands. Obviously if you want to make it authentic, you hit the drum like you would hit while playing.

How about a guitar player for comparison. Strike the string on different spots and listen how the sound changes.

[Burillo]

There is still a difference between hitting the same spot with one hand compared to hitting two spots with two hands. Obviously if you want to make it authentic, you hit the drum like you would hit while playing.

but that's a different matter. and it'll probably sound the same if you do two round-robin'ed shots as you do LH/RH samples at the same time.

How about a guitar player for comparison. Strike the string on different spots and listen how the sound changes.

strike a drum in different places, it'll sound different. this is why we have rimshots the differences between two spots an inch apart will be much less and probably unnoticeable if you throw in velocity variations and other drums into the mix. which is the point i'm making. of course the samples won't null, and of course they won't be exactly the same, but that's not the point. we're not arguing physics here - we're arguing if it's distinguishable in a (double) blind test. i did mine, i can't hear any difference. have you done your double blind?

[Tubeman]

There is still a difference between hitting the same spot with one hand compared to hitting two spots with two hands. Obviously if you want to make it authentic, you hit the drum like you would hit while playing.

but that's a different matter. and it'll probably sound the same if you do two round-robin'ed shots as you do LH/RH samples at the same time.

How about a guitar player for comparison. Strike the string on different spots and listen how the sound changes.

strike a drum in different places, it'll sound different. this is why we have rimshots the differences between two spots an inch apart will be much less and probably unnoticeable if you throw in velocity variations and other drums into the mix. which is the point i'm making. of course the samples won't null, and of course they won't be exactly the same, but that's not the point. we're not arguing physics here - we're arguing if it's distinguishable in a (double) blind test. i did mine, i can't hear any difference. have you done your double blind?

It's totally the same thing. If you are making a sample library with LH RH hits there's no point hitting the dead center with one stick. Many libraries already have alternating LH-RH for easier playability.

I assume you don't hear a difference between guitar/bass downstrokes and upstrokes either.

Cymbals also change the sound drastically even with small stick movement. That's why those libraries with LH-RH samples sound better doing fast hihat rolls for example.

Rimshot is when you hit the rim with the shaft at the same time as the skin not a different spot, sorry. Hence the name rimshot. Sidestick is when you hit only the rim.

[chroma]

i think it depends on how you are going to use it... unless you've got something like a mandala, if you're actually playing the e-drums, you'll get more use out of something with a lot of round-robins and/or velocity variations. using separate left & right samples doesn't help, because you don't have a way to tell the software whether you are playing the left or right hand. and while the left and right hand do sound slightly different (and, as far as i can tell, slightly), the same variations can be had with round robins and/or the slightly varying velocity from multiple hits. you don't get any value out of a lot of extra articulations, because you can't choose them. (this is also true when auto-detecting some of this for e.g. sample replacement).

if you have something with positional sensing and/or many layers like a mandala, and software that supports it (which BFD and SD do, afaik), then you get better bang for the buck by using it... theoretically, your left & right hand will not be at exactly the same position, so you'll get the variation 'for free' if it's sampled in naturally. i don't know how well this works; i never had anything with positional sensing when i had my e-kit (and i only ever played real drums a little bit).

but if you are playing with a keyboard, you can take advantage of as many articulations as they can give you, and left vs. right makes sense.

[Burillo]

anyway, i'm not going to argue about it. i don't doubt your sincerety, it's just that from my experience, there isn't any meaningful difference, at least for snares.

upstrokes and downstrokes are different articulations, not the same articulation played with different hands, btw.

[Tubeman]

anyway, i'm not going to argue about it. i don't doubt your sincerety, it's just that from my experience, there isn't any meaningful difference, at least for snares.

upstrokes and downstrokes are different articulations, not the same articulation played with different hands, btw.

It's the same string from a different side just like the drum. Anyway watch the rimshot video above, it's not a different spot on the skin.

If you watch drum tutorial videos some may talk about paradiddles. You can't do paradiddles with one stick. And it sounds different depending what pd you play. What would be the point otherwise if you could do all with two strike pattern.

[Tubeman]

i think it depends on how you are going to use it... unless you've got something like a mandala, if you're actually playing the e-drums, you'll get more use out of something with a lot of round-robins and/or velocity variations. using separate left & right samples doesn't help, because you don't have a way to tell the software whether you are playing the left or right hand. and while the left and right hand do sound slightly different (and, as far as i can tell, slightly), the same variations can be had with round robins and/or the slightly varying velocity from multiple hits. you don't get any value out of a lot of extra articulations, because you can't choose them. (this is also true when auto-detecting some of this for e.g. sample replacement).

if you have something with positional sensing and/or many layers like a mandala, and software that supports it (which BFD and SD do, afaik), then you get better bang for the buck by using it... theoretically, your left & right hand will not be at exactly the same position, so you'll get the variation 'for free' if it's sampled in naturally. i don't know how well this works; i never had anything with positional sensing when i had my e-kit (and i only ever played real drums a little bit).

but if you are playing with a keyboard, you can take advantage of as many articulations as they can give you, and left vs. right makes sense.

There is a slight difference if not else you can view it as a double the amount of round robins. It will make quite a difference with 200 bpm 16th triplet tremolos.

[Burillo]

It will make quite a difference with 200 bpm 16th triplet tremolos.

i'm sorry i don't to grindcore

[Tubeman]

It will make quite a difference with 200 bpm 16th triplet tremolos.

i'm sorry i don't to grindcore

Not grindcore. Many rock or jazz drummers do these. Your avatar looks tho like you'd do grindcore.

PS. not quite 200 bpm but listen Slayer - Seasons In The Abyss. There is lot 16th triplet fills at ~160 bpm and it's far from grindcore. It's actually a slow song. Sample libraries with a few round robins will fail horribly trying to do these kind of fills.

[Burillo]

i don't do these, i'm mainly into AC/DC-esque stuff so i don't encounter any round-robin problems that much, if any

[Tubeman]

Well try old Iron Maiden or Judas Priest then. Or Deep Purple. You'll find a lot of fast rolls.

[pljones]

The paradiddle rudiment is played with different accents (that's "different velocity") to get the different sound. The "perfect drummer" in the drum world really does play left and right handed notes exactly on the same spot of the snare head (dead centre) and uses only velocity to get accents on the primary rudiments. Of course, the real world has physical limitations that prevent this but the idea is to be as perfect as possible not to use it as an excuse for your left and right hands sounding different.

Use of different positions on the drum skin is a different use of technique from the use of accents. Don't confuse the two or use one to explain the other. The difference you're intended to hear with a paradiddle is from the accents alone.

Another example is the buzz roll. This should be perfectly smooth (despite it being physically impossible to hit the same spot with each stick as they'd collide) and you should still be able to throw in the occasional accent on demand purely through velocity. A two stroke roll again relies on velocity for its sound, not position, in the perfect drummer's world of the rudiment.

Basically, with a snare, I want good velocity sampling. It leads to being able to play rudiments well. Which impresses drummers .

Cymbals are pretty different... unfortunately, for eKits, they really do have a lot of the interest in different positions and eKits poorly support this. Even "position sensitive" cymbals only report two or three positions, not like a position sensing snare that reports a range of positions. So here anything other than a few articulations is wasted. There's still a fair bit of difference with velocity, though - you don't want a crash sounding the same from soft to hard hits, just quieter (some so-called "modelled" crashes do this... no idea what they thought they were modelling).

Back to the snare.

A single mono mic placed as close as possible (but safe!) to a snare is going to have a hard job picking up any difference between two sensible "centre hits" - they'll be about the same distance from head to centre regardless of which hand made the strike (assuming the drummer is even basically any good and knows their job), so the head tension will be about the same. Essentially the only difference is down to whether the drummer being sampled is as strong in their "weak" hand as their lead hand and isn't too hot on compensating for this. If they're good, left and right is irrelevant due to the laws of physics - same tension, same force, same distance to a mono mic, same sound... in the perfect world. The only real-world benefit is more variation to pick from because (a) two hits at "the same velocity" will never be exactly the same force and (b) two hits in "the same position" will never be exactly that either. If you add in additional mics, the difference in position between strikes becomes irrelevant as the distance to the mic eliminate any small difference in sound.

The only time I'd say there could be a difference is if a stereo close mic were used on the snare, where the mic was getting sufficiently different signals from left and right hand to capture and reproduce this. Never, ever use a stereo mic for this purpose.


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EDIT: Sorry, forgot one point on position. Yes, having multiple positions across the snare skin sounds different, as I mentioned. But as with eKit cymbals and as has been mentioned, most of us are without a way of playing naturally on an eKit in a way that captures this positional information, so having it in a sampled kit does end up wasted. Sadly.

[jancivil]

I have quite some experience with a real snare. I am skeptical of your assertion.
The point you seem to be missing or are avoiding in all of this is 'blind test'.

It may be true that a less competent drummer is giving a weaker stroke with their non-dominant hand. The goal however is to produce consistency.
Certainly the edge has different tension and a different tone. It isn't addressed by BFD2 as far as I've seen and it could and I think it may be useful.
But, that isn't the argument of L vs R hand, which would be more or less the same/centered. Is it actually your contention that a LH stroke is necessarily on a differently tensed area of the snare? Other than a necessary weakness - which is going to vary subjectively I think - what is the real reason for a different sample, unless it is the objective criteria 'edge vs center', etc of the drum? What are we talking about?

I think there is a possibility of a placebo type of effect here.

You hit the drum at two different spots

Your consistency here is verging on obtuse. I think I have conveyed clearly that I grant the salient point, and I am sure I made this point already but let me see if I can frame it again: If the two placements are of a significantly different tension, the two samples would clearly be different enough. You would have to record the samples to get two different tones. My training in percussion was to go for more consistency than your scenario seems to describe. Again: I don't grant the difference of L v R per se in samples usage. It may be true depending.
Did the library deliberately create a difference, having the drummer hit definitely different tensed parts of a snare? I fully understand the thing, but I don't find it a very significant deficiency in a library that already takes a lot of space and time to load.

I would like different tones on a snare and I would love it controllable via CC. L v R per se seems precious though.