Cracks in figures

[george]

First of all, we still have the good old 17th of each month. That's our "ACE day".

So your software calls home?

Read the story - it displays a link on the GUI that people may click or not. it opens a browser window, no more, no less.

Thus calling this "the software calls home" is a blatant.

We also have links to Twitter, Facebook, YouTube tutorials and our support page in the plug-ins. Nothing wrong with that.

Sorry, it was not my intention to exaggerate

Thanks for the reply Urs. Still, those sales look great!

[xNiMiNx]

I think that crackers have a huge respect for us. I've been in email contact with Team Assign back in the days, which gave me an extraordinary insight into their thinking and mindset.

I think this has struck me the most of this whole topic. It got me to thinking, the pirate slogan you see most repeated is trying before buying. You mentioned that you were surprised that the time bomb wasnt discovered years ago. Could it be that they leave them in on purpose, to weed out those 'power users' who arent going by that slogan?

Now my interest is peeked, i would love to see those emails.

[lnikj]

I think that crackers have a huge respect for us. I've been in email contact with Team Assign back in the days, which gave me an extraordinary insight into their thinking and mindset.

I think this has struck me the most of this whole topic. It got me to thinking, the pirate slogan you see most repeated is trying before buying. You mentioned that you were surprised that the time bomb wasnt discovered years ago. Could it be that they leave them in on purpose, to weed out those 'power users' who arent going by that slogan?

Now my interest is peeked, i would love to see those emails.

But Urs couldn't possibly copy the correspondence here because that would be a breach of confidentiality or privacy. These crackers have to have their human rights protected you know ...

[Urs]

Sorry, it was not my intention to exaggerate

Yeah, hehe, sorry - I've spent some time on warez sites lately, and being accused of calling home came up quite often. That makes me a tad sensitive.

Thanks for the reply Urs. Still, those sales look great!

Yep, ACE had quite a run.

That said, I haven't started this topic to moan. We got a solid business here. In fact I think I want to do three things:

- encourage developers to do thoughtful protection
- discourage crackers
- show people an exemplatory consequence of freeloader's action
- get that graph off my chest

[Urs]

I think that crackers have a huge respect for us. I've been in email contact with Team Assign back in the days, which gave me an extraordinary insight into their thinking and mindset.

I think this has struck me the most of this whole topic. It got me to thinking, the pirate slogan you see most repeated is trying before buying. You mentioned that you were surprised that the time bomb wasnt discovered years ago. Could it be that they leave them in on purpose, to weed out those 'power users' who arent going by that slogan?

Now my interest is peeked, i would love to see those emails.

But Urs couldn't possibly copy the correspondence here because that would be a breach of confidentiality or privacy. These crackers have to have their human rights protected you know ...

Dunno. It's not like anything too private was discussed. They're mostly from Japan, they use Vsthost and OllyDbg to crack, they're sad that Olly doesn't do 64 bit, two of them volunteered as aid workers after the tsunami. Stuff like that, nothing too fancy or too personal.

I don't think they leave timebombs in by purpose. Team R2R are quite clear about that in their nfo.

[xNiMiNx]

But Urs couldn't possibly copy the correspondence here because...

Well sarcasm aside, I said it with no expectation of actually ever getting to see them. Curiosity will kill the cat in this instance.

[lnikj]

Urs - From what you gleaned is it a misplaced "robin hood' mentality or is it simply the challenge/race to be the first to do it (kudos), followed by a "Having proved I've done it, it's not my problem what use others make of it"? Or something else?

[james0tucson]

Are you saying that the machine running your software will stop working if it's not connected to the internet? There are a lot of performance scenarios where that could be a disaster.

[Urs]

Urs - From what you gleaned is it a misplaced "robin hood' mentality or is it simply the challenge/race to be the first to do it (kudos), followed by a "Having proved I've done it, it's not my problem what use others make of it"? Or something else?

I don't think there's a general case to be made. I think a lot of it is the challenge. That's not necessarily what we know from crackers that affect us, but from reverse engineering forums. Many crackers seem to do this as a hobby.

The other part, being "robin hood-ish" or being bold about it (nfo lingo...), is IMHO something else. I would think of these things as secondary motivation, not as a main cause.

[Urs]

Are you saying that the machine running your software will stop working if it's not connected to the internet? There are a lot of performance scenarios where that could be a disaster.

I'm saying exactly the opposite.

[jupiter8]

Are you saying that the machine running your software will stop working if it's not connected to the internet? There are a lot of performance scenarios where that could be a disaster.

I'm saying exactly the opposite.

That it will stop working if it is connected to the internet ?

[lnikj]

Urs - From what you gleaned is it a misplaced "robin hood' mentality or is it simply the challenge/race to be the first to do it (kudos), followed by a "Having proved I've done it, it's not my problem what use others make of it"? Or something else?

I don't think there's a general case to be made. I think a lot of it is the challenge. That's not necessarily what we know from crackers that affect us, but from reverse engineering forums. Many crackers seem to do this as a hobby.

The other part, being "robin hood-ish" or being bold about it (nfo lingo...), is IMHO something else. I would think of these things as secondary motivation, not as a main cause.

I can tell that to a certain extent you equally enjoy the challenge of outwitting them.

This has turned into an interesting thread. If you were able to license your methods under a strict NDA to other developers then things might improve for everybody but I guess that the more people who use your techniques then the sooner something will slip and a door will be opened ...

[Urs]

I can tell that to a certain extent you equally enjoy the challenge of outwitting them.

True

This has turned into an interesting thread. If you were able to license your methods under a strict NDA to other developers then things might improve for everybody but I guess that the more people who use your techniques then the sooner something will slip and a door will be opened ...

I don't really think so. As I wrote somewhere in the first post, we're thinking of completely unveiling our methods and placing them in the public domain. Or sell a few books.

Thing is, without revealing any code there's a set of simple rules that we follow. For instance, Clemens developed a schematic that deals with "delay", "detect" and "nag". For each of these we have a large set of ideas. For instance a delay could be a block of memory allocated at a distinct address. A detection could be a checksum over the binary and a nag could be a message that's displayed to the user. Having a pattern like that to work with helps to create a protection that is "complete".

Another aspect is about analysing cracks to see what they do. We know for pretty sure what areas they attacked and what they didn't find about 30 minutes after our Google Alert finds the first download. Sometimes they surprise us with a new angle, and then we add a countermeasure against it in the next update. For each of their angles we have two or three "delay - detect - nag" cascades.

Some crack detections are very simple, yet very efficient. For example, we open a second instance of a plugin and register it with a bogus serial number. If that instance doesn't go into demo mode, then the software is cracked. This is very, very simple, yet knowing that we do this doesn't help the crackers at all. We're very good at obscuring things by hiding them in code that we use elsewhere.

An important recipe is to always use functions that are also used elsewhere in the plug-in. We make sure that most code that deals with protection is code that also deals with actual features. For instance, the counter that makes sure that Diva's envelopes keep fading to zero even after a voice has been put to standby, is the same counter that triggers a demo mode. Take the counter out and the software is crippled.

All in all I think we have a huge repertoire of things that we could simply open source. And maybe then they think twice before simply stopping a counter - they might destroy the character of a plug-in without knowing. To the contrary, I think that if we opened up our arsenal, we'd discourage them. Unfortunately we have other things on our plate, but we might eventually work on it.

[Compyfox]

Nevertheless, among all the arguments... someone who has used a Zebra crack for a year would certainly make a very good customer. He won't have any beginner's questions, he won't need much support. The question is, what kind of "invitation" does he need? - Which is where my bet is on "polite" rather than "annoying". Someone who's absorbed in anger won't open his wallet, while someone who chuckles may be.

I think I can answer the question "what invitation is needed".

Cracks (at least back in the days) were there due to the fact that there was barely any demo version, if ever. Especially for samples. Audio demos were pretty much overhyped (still are these days). And in order to actually "test" something, you had to either buy it, or simply find the right place to get it.


There are still a lot of souls that go that route, but these souls also pay for their tools. Which, however, is a minority. And they need the funds first - so chances are that something else is on a higher priority list (mine is fairly long already, with hardware pushed way back!), like needed paid(!) updates (Steinberg, and to a certain extend also VST/VSTi providers - sorry George, but I'm still on R2 or something of Discovery?!), backup stuff, etc.

The majority is all like "whooo! Free sh*t! Let me be the next tarnce producer". And sadly, this is most of the time the case. But, then we have to split the fractions yet again, because if some of them are successful, they pay for their stuff. And then act as saints... er, yeah.



I don't want to play down the fact that stealing has a big influence in sales. Especially for small companies, but it also has it's flipsides. Like: unexpected promotion, no need for further support or beginners questions, etc. To a certain extend, it even flushes out the "crap" (those people that think that their stuff is great, but hide it in ton of C/P schemes, broken servers and shady advertising).

Then again, seeing certain high class producers (that make several grands a year!) being interviewed (video blogs), and then you see cracked versions or "NDA'd" beta versions in the background of the video (or even in focus!) - this just boils my blood.

I understand that money definitely is tight (I'm in the very same position, and I know several successful producers that struggle just as much), and sometimes demo versions are just too cripled, or are buggy as hell (compared to hacks, which already happened as well, btw!).

But especially those people, that get several grand a year from returned funds (sales, plays, etc) could at least be smart enough to not pull such crap.



And... the second hand market was never any better and more active!

Heck, I can shoot first class gear (both hardware and software) for a fraction of the street price on both GS and KVR. Like I recently did, with the Focusrite Midnight Plugins. Find a certain hardware module you want to integrate, but don't fear that it's being used or maybe even slightly damaged - browse through small ads!


Then again, introducing "fees" for writing over customer data, and having additoinal fee for "transfering", on top of even more additional fees for "iLok", is just a ripoff. But that's on a whole different ballpark.





Either way - interesting list for sure. And apparently, certain models (including yours, Urs) seem to work. Friendly being one, low priced being another.

Still sad to see certain small companies being cracked up and down.

[lnikj]

I can tell that to a certain extent you equally enjoy the challenge of outwitting them.

True

This has turned into an interesting thread. If you were able to license your methods under a strict NDA to other developers then things might improve for everybody but I guess that the more people who use your techniques then the sooner something will slip and a door will be opened ...

I don't really think so. As I wrote somewhere in the first post, we're thinking of completely unveiling our methods and placing them in the public domain. Or sell a few books.

I thought I'd read something like that and then I couldn't find it ... found it now!

Thing is, without revealing any code there's a set of simple rules that we follow. For instance, Clemens developed a schematic that deals with "delay", "detect" and "nag". For each of these we have a large set of ideas. For instance a delay could be a block of memory allocated at a distinct address. A detection could be a checksum over the binary and a nag could be a message that's displayed to the user. Having a pattern like that to work with helps to create a protection that is "complete".

Another aspect is about analysing cracks to see what they do. We know for pretty sure what areas they attacked and what they didn't find about 30 minutes after our Google Alert finds the first download. Sometimes they surprise us with a new angle, and then we add a countermeasure against it in the next update. For each of their angles we have two or three "delay - detect - nag" cascades.

Some crack detections are very simple, yet very efficient. For example, we open a second instance of a plugin and register it with a bogus serial number. If that instance doesn't go into demo mode, then the software is cracked. This is very, very simple, yet knowing that we do this doesn't help the crackers at all. We're very good at obscuring things by hiding them in code that we use elsewhere.

An important recipe is to always use functions that are also used elsewhere in the plug-in. We make sure that most code that deals with protection is code that also deals with actual features. For instance, the counter that makes sure that Diva's envelopes keep fading to zero even after a voice has been put to standby, is the same counter that triggers a demo mode. Take the counter out and the software is crippled.

All in all I think we have a huge repertoire of things that we could simply open source. And maybe then they think twice before simply stopping a counter - they might destroy the character of a plug-in without knowing. To the contrary, I think that if we opened up our arsenal, we'd discourage them. Unfortunately we have other things on our plate, but we might eventually work on it.

Not being a coder this is all fascinating information, particularly about reusing functions for protection. Not sure I've quite understood the "delay" bit but don't waste your time explaining it unless others are interested.

As Sendy noted above other developers appear to struggle with these issues that lead them to frustration and increasingly draconian policies which damage relations with legitimate customers. In an ideal world one might see some C-R using companies clubbing together for you to run a workshop for them. (What ?? ... did somebody mention flying pigs? .... )

As we're all waiting with bated breath for Diva 1.3, Bazille & Zebra 3 then we don't want to persuade you into other avenues but I'm sure your techniques would massively benefit the whole plugin developer community if you could find some way to pay for/support/find the time for the dissemination process.

Thanks for a really interesting reply.