Nope, although I was hoping so too.clintmartin wrote:The Cakewalk forums just went offline. I bet when it comes back we will start to hear another side of the story. I can't wait for X3 it's looking pretty sweet to me.
Cakewalk Sonar X3
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- KVRist
- 363 posts since 25 May, 2011
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- KVRian
- 508 posts since 15 Nov, 2012 from Arkansas, USA
I lost the bet? I'm glad the stakes were not very high! Hahaha.
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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- KVRian
- 546 posts since 8 Mar, 2007
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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- KVRian
- 1004 posts since 2 Aug, 2004 from Sweden
After that post I believe you. You don't understand. If I'm ever in Australia or you're ever in Sweden let's meet up take a beer and I'll explain the problem I have with your post. I will not go down that route here because this thread already have had enough drama.
I've said myself that X2a isn't stable for me (X1d is though). I have more money in Cakewalk products than you have. I want you and me to have bug free versions. That's not the issue.
I've said myself that X2a isn't stable for me (X1d is though). I have more money in Cakewalk products than you have. I want you and me to have bug free versions. That's not the issue.
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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- KVRAF
- 7095 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
I have to agree with you - it's a mystery Cake did not attend properly to every reported bug regarding stability - and finally fixing it. Carefully summing up everything reported and getting a fuller picture of where in code to start looking.TheoM wrote:I do care but I don't get why what I'm saying is so off the mark.. It's bad code... To say that regardless who the lead programmer or owner of cakewalk is, the program is an unstable buggy mess, deserves loss of respect? This is what I will never understand and I guess why one either loves me or hates me.. The way I see it is that its cakewalk who should have lost the respect, not me
There are still an angry crowd at Cakes forum wanting X2b with fixes for what they already paid for - not a new pay version.
I just learned to save often - and never lost much work over it. But I can understand that anybody working professionally in a studio with clients cannot have that.
- Ooooooooops, where did that go, could you take that over again, please.
But it is really nice to work a full day in Reaper or Studio One and not a sign of instability.
Buggy mess and loss of respect is not the words I would use for Cake though. Not top notch and not proffessional level is more like a description I would use.
Somebody posted a financial report at Cakes forum and that tells a story why it was sold. And part reason for that is probably it never was quite considered stable enough for the most serious work. I waited 5 years for bugs of Sonar 4 to be fixed before giving up and got Sonar 8.5 anyway to get a x64 version. So they missed out on 4 upgrade costs on me - that might be another reason they don't make money. People hold their investments since they are not listened to.
As a programmer I know one always make mistakes. What you do about those - is the difference with those that have a future and those that don't.
I sense some new energy at Cakes though, maybe at the whipping post, but still. I hope Gibson shift management of development - to a management with biiiiiig ears and firm strategy to run software development.
I will try out X3 with interest and give it a shot. After all their upgrade cost are very reasonable.
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- KVRian
- 667 posts since 4 Jun, 2002
I don't want to be confrontational but I think I can offer some possible insight into why a lot of people might take some exception to your comments regarding Sonar's underlying technology and dev team. Basically anyone that has worked as a developer contributing to any large system will tell you that it only takes a few bad calls to make everything look bad. Not that Sonar is huge but it's not a "small" app by any stretch either. I don't want to type a lot here but I will say that you can have great devs writing great code and still there are a hundred ways to end up looking bad. Bad QA policy/strategy, over ambitious marketing, pushy sales, a few poorly placed team leads are just the more obvious ones but really just the tip of the iceberg. One bad hire in a good team alone can do a ton of damage. Cake's most likely problem is resources vs ambition if I had to guess.TheoM wrote:I do care but I don't get why what I'm saying is so off the mark.. It's bad code...
A lot of people here recognize what I'm saying I'm sure 'cause there are a lot devs that hang at KVR. Lastly I'd add that years ago I saw some financials for Cakewalk. I was amazed at how little the income was considering what they managed to put out. Nobody (or few if any) were getting stinking rich. And there's a lot of clearly talented people there 'cause as many here have commented (including often the disgruntled ex users) if the app was more stable it would be great. These guys aren't hacks. I'm sure they could get well paying jobs elsewhere. My personal conclusion was that yes, there are some bad decisions being made that affect stability, but that said I'd bet that most likely the guys/women at the core of the dev team are very competent and that they stay there (as opposed to going elsewhere and probably making more money) because their love of music and the technology. Or at least without knowing for sure that that I'm wrong I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt (and that is separate from whether I remain a customer).
Last edited by chrisby on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 1004 posts since 2 Aug, 2004 from Sweden
Cool that you take it that way - but don't expect pm until tomorrow - it's in the middle of the night here and I'm closing down.TheoM wrote: Cool? I wait for that. Cheers
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- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12442 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
I think Theo is on point. There are people who swear Sonar is "rock solid" on their system, and I think that has more to do with how they use Sonar than it does on Sonar or their system. My first version of Sonar, was Sonar (1) XL, and that was probably 6 different PC's ago. Some of the same bugs I've experienced in X2, existed in Sonar 1. I'm sorry, but I just can't let Cakewalk slide on that.
Cakewalk is well aware of the issues, but they either turn a blind eye, or say they have to "prioritize" what to work on. Well guess what, when your DAW is unstable, that should be priority number 1. Also, maybe if you didn't hold yourselves to a stupid, arbitrary annual release, you'd have more time to fix some of the issues that are fundamentally wrong with your DAW.
In one post in the forum last night, either Noel or Andrew went into a semantic arguments about the definition of what a "bug" is. They were basically arguing that yeah "Sonar hanging out in the system tray may seem like a bug to users because a process didn't close properly, but it's not really a bug because we can't reproduce it" or something like that. Hey, it's a bug when it does something that's not-intended. Cakewalk and their forum fans will rush to blame a system configuration issue or a plugin, meanwhile other DAW's on the same system running the same plugins are much more stable. That tells me it's the DAW dummy.
In the last day, I've also seen Cakewalk blame their user base for not reporting the problems enough via the Problem Reporter, or for not submitting tech support tickets. Meanwhile, their email Tech Support is essentially non-existent, and I'm sorry, but phone support is not something I have any interest in. Especially when we're dealing with bugs that have existed for years. Unless the phone support is going to run a debugger and correct the code over the phone, then I'm not sure what they'd do. Most of the bugs I'm talking about just pop randomly for seemingly no reason (Disk May Be Full error on record, Sonar not fulling closing properly). And the problem reporter? I've had some success there with smaller, more easily producible bugs, but not with the bigger instability issues that plague Sonar.
Look at any Sonar thread on any forum. There's always a number of former users complaining about stability and how they were forced to abandon it as a DAW. Then there's people who'll reply and say "that's weird, it's always been rock solid here." While all DAW's will crash at some point, I just don't see that level of buggyness being reported on Reaper forums, or on the Studio One forums. It's just Sonar.
And as Theo said, the proof is in the pudding. I don't care WHY it doesn't work. Or WHO made it not work. I just care that it doesn't work. And like Theo, I've reported issues to Cakewalk, I've been willing to work with them, it's just gone nowhere.
If Sonar X3 is the most stable DAW ever, then great. I'll be back on board. The reality is that it won't be.
Cakewalk is well aware of the issues, but they either turn a blind eye, or say they have to "prioritize" what to work on. Well guess what, when your DAW is unstable, that should be priority number 1. Also, maybe if you didn't hold yourselves to a stupid, arbitrary annual release, you'd have more time to fix some of the issues that are fundamentally wrong with your DAW.
In one post in the forum last night, either Noel or Andrew went into a semantic arguments about the definition of what a "bug" is. They were basically arguing that yeah "Sonar hanging out in the system tray may seem like a bug to users because a process didn't close properly, but it's not really a bug because we can't reproduce it" or something like that. Hey, it's a bug when it does something that's not-intended. Cakewalk and their forum fans will rush to blame a system configuration issue or a plugin, meanwhile other DAW's on the same system running the same plugins are much more stable. That tells me it's the DAW dummy.
In the last day, I've also seen Cakewalk blame their user base for not reporting the problems enough via the Problem Reporter, or for not submitting tech support tickets. Meanwhile, their email Tech Support is essentially non-existent, and I'm sorry, but phone support is not something I have any interest in. Especially when we're dealing with bugs that have existed for years. Unless the phone support is going to run a debugger and correct the code over the phone, then I'm not sure what they'd do. Most of the bugs I'm talking about just pop randomly for seemingly no reason (Disk May Be Full error on record, Sonar not fulling closing properly). And the problem reporter? I've had some success there with smaller, more easily producible bugs, but not with the bigger instability issues that plague Sonar.
Look at any Sonar thread on any forum. There's always a number of former users complaining about stability and how they were forced to abandon it as a DAW. Then there's people who'll reply and say "that's weird, it's always been rock solid here." While all DAW's will crash at some point, I just don't see that level of buggyness being reported on Reaper forums, or on the Studio One forums. It's just Sonar.
And as Theo said, the proof is in the pudding. I don't care WHY it doesn't work. Or WHO made it not work. I just care that it doesn't work. And like Theo, I've reported issues to Cakewalk, I've been willing to work with them, it's just gone nowhere.
If Sonar X3 is the most stable DAW ever, then great. I'll be back on board. The reality is that it won't be.