Cracks in figures

[chk071]

Interesting thread indeed.

There is something I allways say when I speak with crack addicts (I'd say that about 101% of the students of audio engineering that study where I teach use cracked software), and that to me is a good argument.
At least I feel that they "get it" in a "deeper" level, they understand why it is important. That argument is very much alike psycoanalysis. If you don't pay for your weekly sesion, you don't involve yourself in it, and so you won't have any good results out of it. (OK I don't want to start a debate about the need of it or not, or whatever, it just is more true than the opposite)

I explain them that if they want to learn, they better buy one 20 $ plugin and take 4 month to learn it inside out, and then go to the next from there. And they get it. They also really couldn't care less about something than about it "being wrong", and they look actualy defensive whem I say that it is "not that cool", when you think about the developper.

Basicaly what I am trying to say, is that the message seems (in my opinion) to pass better when you explain what they have to gain, and not why it is bad from a society-point-of-view.

Also I feel bad beause in class we use Bazille, TYRELL and Zebralette a lot, and right after I see that allmost all of them use a cracked Zebra...DAMN

Well, thank you URS for your view on things, your work and everything. The way I see it you are 400% right about everything.

The best argument i know would be "You don't steal products in a store, why do you steal software then". I know, the answer has to do with the anonymity on the net, the lack of having to face consequences (mostly) and all that. But i think the wisest is to build up some attitude, codex and consciousness when you are on the net. If you can't do that, then probably you will be doing things on the net, you wouldn't do in real life.

[rp314]

Somewhere a hard-working person opens up a business selling oranges.

What are this person's main concerns in trying to make it?

1. The recent draught in certain parts of the world that has increased the price of oranges?

2. A wealthier citizen who has decided to open up a business next door selling Apples and can well-afford to sell them at very low prices?

3. A recent downturn in the economy that has reduced the available income of many citizens?

4. The existence of certain individuals who for one reason or another decide to help themselves to oranges that are in the cart outside without paying for them?

5. All of the above?


It's good to hear that some decent businesses have fared well during these difficult times. We need the fruit!

[Urs]

Dunno. It's not like anything too private was discussed. They're mostly from Japan, they use Vsthost and OllyDbg to crack

Intriguing. I never thought of my host as an instrument in a cracker's toolbox...

The explanation was simple: It loads quickly

[Urs]

Somewhere a hard-working person opens up a business selling oranges.

What are this person's main concerns in trying to make it?

1. The recent draught in certain parts of the world that has increased the price of oranges?

2. A wealthier citizen who has decided to open up a business next door selling Apples and can well-afford to sell them at very low prices?

3. A recent downturn in the economy that has reduced the available income of many citizens?

4. The existence of certain individuals who for one reason or another decide to help themselves to oranges that are in the cart outside without paying for them?

5. All of the above?


It's good to hear that some decent businesses have fared well during these difficult times. We need the fruit!

This btw. is a very accurate image of what plug-in devs go through too. Plug-ins may not be essential for living like food is, but selling plug-ins is as essential for us as selling oranges is for that person. The fears are the very same.

[codec_spurt]

A few ramblings back, if I may

If you can afford a computer that runs ACE, you can afford ACE. That's why ACE is such a great example.

By all means. Du bist wilkommen.

I made the mistake of saying 'your' software and that made it sound specific, as if you were somehow pricing yourself out of the market. I was talking generally. I should have said 'one's'. But then again with the point you make, I'm not sure how much water that would hold either. Certainly ACE would be a very good example of that.

How many people with water cooled Hexacores could not afford ACE?

Mmm...

But there are people out there that get their hands on computers, fall on hard times, have other commitments to make all of a sudden, you know, general life shit. But then again I concede that most of them are very few and far between.

You win that round Urs.

But, what of those that have the Hexacore water cooled monstrosity and are just playing about, toying with you by 'stealing' your software. How can you tell who they are? What can you do about them? How can you punish those that really deserve punishing vs. those that may one day become a loyal customer and buy several of your amazing products?



Fwiw, one of the most talented crackers I ever knew is now working in a library, in the states - he is American. Next to Germany, America seems to be next in the pecking order of great crackers. It is not uncommon for some of them to suffer the 'cracker's lament' - Dear God, did I just spend ten years of my life learning Assembly to a proficient enough level so I could use HIEW and Softice and IDA? Where were the trees?


These people have come and gone. They could crack your program I am sure if they wanted to. Is that a gauntlet? Maybe. But did you not throw the gauntlet down to them first? (After some provocation admittedly)

You say you are interested in taking things further. But you don't say what you want. I repeat myself: You say you are very close to a perfect uncrackable program yourself. But you seem to be unsure whether you want to release it on the world. Yet you lament other devs for saying that to release an uncrackable program would mean loss in sales.

Maybe I got something wrong. To be honest, I don't really care. But I am just interested in the argument here, and I will understand if you don't want to take it any further. I will still buy Zebra as soon as I can. And also your exceptional FX. I would feel cheap and dirty and soiled to use anything from you that I did not pay for. And Sascha is another genius that deserves to be rewarded. As the rest of your staff, along with all the paying customers you have.

But I am dense. Those that know me well, know this well.

Again, I don't feel I added anything to the debate.

But maybe knowing that the people that crack your programs feel a deep sense of loss at the waste of their life, eventually, contributed something? Then again, not everyone wakes up!

And again, when I say 'your', I mean 'one's'.



I'm rambling again. I make very little sense to myself. I am sure I make less sense to you.

[Nanakai]

Fascinating. I love statistics. Thanks, Urs.

[Constructed Identity]

The exploitation of humans by other humans has been a fact of life since the dawn of civilization and any creative person has to be aware of it. The greater your success the greater you're exposed to it. Technology doesn't change anything regarding human behavior so the old rule of keys to the castle apply: the more you have/can get, the bigger your walls must be.

[Urs]

We're far from a perfect solution, but I think that we have an uncommon angle.

If we had the time, we'd publish a book or a set of papers about it. We have other things to do, yet I needed my "one year of Google Analytics" off my chest.

There's no "bigger picture" in this. FWIW we've shared the largest part of our ideas with other developers, and a very large part of these ideas were inspired by other devs.

I don't know about "real" crackers, but those who do audio software are not necessarily blessed with pride or brightness. The latest batch of cracks of our stuff exposes one group as completely free of vanity and sophistication. They used serial numbers that were bought with stolen credit cards and which we naturally had blacklisted. We deliberately left the blacklist very easy to target, and all they needed to do is change a single byte. By doing so they've entered the same lowlife level that the guys did who used the stolen credit cards. It's quite the revelation for us. Had there ever been any respect for crackers, it's now gone.

Sure, I like to provoke. It's a pity I can't post links to warez forums here. Just a few links to a few posts would render any provocation unnecessary

[Kriminal]

How many people with water cooled Hexacores could not afford ACE?

i dont think its about being able to afford the software they use illegally (as pointed out by Urs, lots seem to buy it when the crack goes tits up)

there may be many reasons/excuses ppl use cracks... we all know what they are

i still think the majority of ppl who use cracked software will never buy it.

[Urs]

Yeah... "can't afford it" has always been the lamest excuse for piracy in my books. Someone who's in a situation where financial trouble threatens his existance should have better things to do than make music.

The most honest excuse IMHO is lazyness. A bunch of cracks is easily downloaded and installed, all from a single torrent site. It's much more convenient than going to a dozen vendor sites, download demos, try, make decisions, educate oneself before parting with money, go back to vendor site, fill basket, wade through check out process, wait for serial, maybe install full version, sign up on a website to register, install and unlock the full version, feel a little uncomfortable in case of regrets.

Truth is, finding, downloading, installing and using cracked software has less thrills than staying legit. Once the soft is on the harddrive and running, why go through any of this, right? The fear of regret alone may be stronger than the bad conscience.

This, I believe, is the true reason for using cracked software for the large majority of people who use ACE warezed.

That's why our copy protection targets people who spent considerable time tweaking our stuff. Those people buy without fear for regrets because they know that they'll put it to good use.

[codec_spurt]

I think you misunderstand me Gentlemen.

Even so, whilst you misunderstand me, it is of no matter, because I do not adhere to your viewpoint as wholeheartedly as you do anyway.

We shall have to agree to disagree.

There are people that are on the bleeding edge, and they can not afford your software or any software at all.

They may be in a minority, and you can make as many moral judgements as you want, but that does not do away with the reality of the situation.

I feel I've bent a bit in this argument and been fairly reasonable, but are you both - Urs and Kriminal - saying that there are NOT people who can not afford to buy any more software?

I really can not believe either of you would say that. We are discussing grey areas here. And also black and white, more specifically.

Not morally, financially.


I'll repeat that one more time, because this is the area I feel you both misunderstand me on - NOT morally, but financially.


I wish I could explain myself better sometimes. We may be arguing over nothing. One thing I think we can agree on, is that no one can in any way justify using software they have not paid for to make music, whether, and for whatever reason, they have the money to buy it or not.


Ist das klar?

[BMoore]

Simple. It's all about consequences, or the lack of.

[Tricky-Loops]

Yeah... "can't afford it" has always been the lamest excuse for piracy in my books. Someone who's in a situation where financial trouble threatens his existance should have better things to do than make music.

What do you want to say with it?

That people with financial troubles shouldn't make music?

There are MANY people who are short on money but still make music because they've made music their whole life. Why should they give up making music just because they're economically disadvantaged?

And there are enough ways to make music. Even with some free synths & free Musicradar loops & free drum samples it's possible to make electronic music.

Nobody needs U-He synths to make music. If I can't buy them, I don't use them. Simple as that.

If someone is really that poor that he cannot buy enough plugins to start producing music, then he or she should work some time in another (paid) job to earn some money. Then he can buy plugins and start a music production.

Truth is that most people who use cracks, wear the most expensive clothing from well known brands. They're not short on money, they simply have other priorities where they spend their money (clothing, audio equipment, vacations etc.).

[Constructed Identity]

I just checked and it looks like I bought ACE on the 17th of the month last year.
I am pretty sure didn't buy it because of a reminder though, and I don't think I even demoed it so I don't fit with the statistics here at all.

[Urs]

Yeah... "can't afford it" has always been the lamest excuse for piracy in my books. Someone who's in a situation where financial trouble threatens his existance should have better things to do than make music.

What do you want to say with it?

That people with financial troubles shouldn't make music?

No, of course not. I mean that people on the brink of starvation have worse problems than worry about the latest and greatest tools.