Cracks in figures

[Tricky-Loops]

Yeah... "can't afford it" has always been the lamest excuse for piracy in my books. Someone who's in a situation where financial trouble threatens his existance should have better things to do than make music.

What do you want to say with it?

That people with financial troubles shouldn't make music?

No, of course not. I mean that people on the brink of starvation have worse problems than worry about the latest and greatest tools.

There may be starving kids, even in Berlin-Kreuzberg, who use cracks because they think they can only get successful as a producer with the most trendy plugins like Massive, Sylenth and Alchemy and your stuff...

[codec_spurt]

No, of course not. I mean that people on the brink of starvation have worse problems than worry about the latest and greatest tools.

We are not talking about those on the brink of starvation here. Why exaggerate and polarise the argument like this? That is political rhetoric to do so.

We are talking about some very comfortable well off people.

Your biggest threat is not those that can not afford your software, but those that can but yet still choose not to pay for it, because they can. Until you can build a protection scheme that stops them.

And you still haven't committed yourself to saying whether you want to do that or not. But you say you have the technology to do it.

Can I make it any more clear, I am on your side Urs. I want you to have your rewards. I love your synth and I will buy it. I don't need it. I really don't need it. I have it covered ten times over. But I still will buy it. And your FX too. I have respect for you and your coding skills. I have respect for you with how you are bringing the 'protection' argument forward.

Alles klar.

And Tricky-Loops, I have much respect for you too.

For your morals. For your courage to stick your head above the parapet.

Das ist richtig.

[Delfinoverde]

Yeah... "can't afford it" has always been the lamest excuse for piracy in my books. Someone who's in a situation where financial trouble threatens his existance should have better things to do than make music.

Sorry but this sounds so wrong, also cynical!
No wonder some [snobby] folks are riding too high on their horses… but as higher they ride - as deeper they'll fall. I invite you to visit countries such as Brazil, Cuba or similar… you'll then maybe get surprised to see the "poorest" people making one of the best music of the world - even without any digital setups!

Come down from your high seat on your horse Mister! Regarding Cracks you aren't that wrong sometimes, from your point of view as developer. But your software company is so small compared to ADOBE or others. Those are targeted even harder by crackers! Of course their profits are still higher than their losses, because they're more popular and their products are used by many professionals.

I suggest you to calm down and ponder - sometimes you can learn much even from your worst enemies [=crackers] - see the reality as it is: once you set out a product into the world you barely can have real control over it.

[chk071]

There may be starving kids, even in Berlin-Kreuzberg, who use cracks because they think they can only get successful as a producer with the most trendy plugins like Massive, Sylenth and Alchemy and your stuff...

Well, it is a mistake to think so. And it is a big mistake to take that as a valid excuse for using warez, if that is your point.

[Tricky-Loops]

I invite you to visit countries such as Brazil, Cuba or similar… you'll then maybe get surprised to see the "poorest" people making one of the best music of the world - even without any digital setups!

Are you sure that these are the poorest producers? From what I have seen there are many WEALTHY guys with big studios, even in Brazil and Cuba.

Even in Italy, I guess there are a few big studios owned by rich guys who produce all this Italo-Pop for Radio Italia...

[Tricky-Loops]

There may be starving kids, even in Berlin-Kreuzberg, who use cracks because they think they can only get successful as a producer with the most trendy plugins like Massive, Sylenth and Alchemy and your stuff...

Well, it is a mistake to think so. And it is a big mistake to take that as a valid excuse for using warez, if that is your point.

Then read my post at page 6 where I describe that even for poor people it's possible to make music without cracks...

I said what THESE KIDS think, not what I think... I could live without U-He synths but for these poor kids it's the stuff that a big producer needs to get rich, and if they cannot afford it, they use the cracks...

[chk071]

Then read my post at page 6 where I describe that even for poor people it's possible to make music without cracks...

True, i actually read that, that's why i was surprised a little. But if you're talking about the situation as it is, yeah, i guess that those kids will act so.

@ delfinoverde: I guess Urs' point was rather that poor people rather should look for a way to improve their situation than to desire for expensive instruments.

[Urs]

Your biggest threat is not those that can not afford your software, but those that can but yet still choose not to pay for it, because they can. Until you can build a protection scheme that stops them.

I completely agree and I don't understand why the last few posts here turned into that kind of argument.

I've been going on about a number of users who can afford to buy there and then. Those are the ones we think about. We've proven these to be a considerable number who really just steal even though they have the means to not to.

Nevertheless, whenever a point is made that assumes the existance and motives of such a group of people, someone else comes in a brings back the same but same "they wouldn't buy anyway, and maybe they're poor". To which I say, this is a lame statement - it has nothing to do with the reality of what the statistics show, it's just the same cheap excuse that isn't even an excuse. It's a diversion. Yes they certainly exist but they're non of our concern.

Copy protection and technology aside, I'm certain that poorness has less of an impact on piracy than convenience/lazyness.

Ich gehe jetzt ins Bett. Gutes Nacht.

[metamorphosis]

My experience with making music is that the kids who start off with the best equipment, digital or otherwise, become the worst producers, because they don't learn to eq bad equipment or make the best out of what they have.

Saying someone can't afford a plugin is not excuse when there are literally thousands of free VSTs, some as good as paid stuff, out there. That's where any beginner should be starting, not at the high end - they're wasting their talent if they start there...

[fateamenabletochange]

...... I'm certain that poorness has less of an impact on piracy than convenience/lazyness.

...and greed and entitlement


edit...also think peeps take a 'because you can' kind of approach, and go a little nutty with it, and start downloading a huge collection of cracks, and possibly use their favorites a lot.

[Tricky-Loops]

Typical German conversation (translated into English):

A: "I want to make professional music for clubs, I need some great synths..."
B: "You must have Sylenth... X, Y and Z are using it, they said it in this interview, and they're famous producers..."
A: "But it costs 150 EUR! That's too much for a synth! It's only software!"
B: "I can give it you for free, I have it on my hard disk!"
A: "The full version? No need to pay?"
B: "Yes, the full version, I've downloaded it for free! Why should I pay, they already have enough money!"
A: "That's great! Put it on my USB stick! Then I can use the 150 EUR for new shoes!"

This kind of conversation happens several hundreds of time in Germany. Not that they hadn't enough money. It's just they think they can spare the money for software - because "it's only software" - and spend it for other stuff that cannot be gotten for free (-- ever cracked shoes, anyone? ).

[Urs]

Hmmm, I think I understand now why I came across wrong, and why I put the poorness thing in drastic words.

Thing is, I grew up as a step child of drunk, unemployed asshole. My mother kept things together, but there wasn't much support for making music. Still, I wanted a DX-7. So after school I would clean a huge car park at a market, 10 marks for two hours. After a year I had saved enough to buy a CZ1000. I bought a whole lot of equipment that way and it took a long time.

ACE on the other hand is extremely more powerful than a CZ1000 and its earned in two weeks brooming a parking lot, or in just two nights working in a cafe or bar.

From my perspective, really, "nearly starving" is not such an extreme word to describe "too poor to afford ACE". Everyone else could, if they really wanted.

Truth is, we have a lot of customers who have saved up over months to buy our stuff. I have the highest respect for these people.

[Tricky-Loops]

Still, I wanted a DX-7. So after school I would clean a huge car park at a market, 10 marks for two hours. After a year I had saved enough to buy a CZ1000. I bought a whole lot of equipment that way and it took a long time.

I would encourage everyone to do the same with plugins - carry out a help job, no matter how monotone it may be, earn the money and buy the plugins...

BUT [we imagine that the CZ1000 were an expensive plugin now]

-- imagine you would have met a friend and he would have said to you: "Urs, you're absolutely stupid to pay for the CZ1000! Spend your money for better things, you can buy new clothes for it! I have gotten CZ1000 for free! I have it on my hard disk! Gimme your USB stick and I put it on it!"

Would you really have said:

1. "No, thanks, I'll better clean the car park for a year, then I can buy it myself!"

Or would you have said:

2. "Great, I'll give you my USB-stick, and then I can start to make music with my CZ1000!"

Even if you really were the morality in person already in teen age, in many cases people would choose the second "give it to me" option, just because of convenience and to save money for other things!

[arakula]

I think it's as simple as that - man is opportunistic by nature, while ethics, morale, and the basic feeling for "right" or "wrong" are cultural add-ons that we all try to instill into our children because they've proven to work in societies over thousands of years. The current political and economic systems, however, present a totally different picture on a subconscious level - greed and selfishness provide the most "successful" prominent characters. That constantly nibbles away at the moral constraints we might have.

Given the possibility, and without any risk of being punished, the old opportunistic nature shows up, and the faint voice of conscience is easily ignored.

Just an old cynic here...

[Urs]

Would you really have said:

1. "No, thanks, I'll better clean the car park for a year, then I can buy it myself!"

Yes, I'm that guy and I'm grateful that it doesn't take a year anymore

I'm kind of weird though, I know that. It's contagious even - people around me tend to sober up about any such thing. My wife abandoned her beloved fake LV bag, not because I said anything but because she suddenly found it embarrassing.

I understand why things are convenient. Everyone has to make his own choices though. I believe that "I warez because everyone does" is a sympthom of a mindset that leads to the same arbitrariness in their music. People like that doing anything remotely interesting might be the rare exception, because quite frankly and unlike poor people, they have nothing to say. I skip the half assed psychology and just say, moaning about boredom is the most boring thing one can do, and substituting "bore" with "love" or "money" doesn't make it any better. (mind you, there's great songs about love and economics, but these guys ain't the ones writing them)

I think in the next incarnation of our copy protection we'll weaken the indicators for power users and we'll strengthen the indicators for talent. We make it so that "piracy for boredom" is met with a link to some competitor we don't like