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deep'n'dark · Post by **deep'n'dark** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:01 pm

I've been writing lot of lyrics for my own songs, and they are usually ok'ish, but I still would like to know if you have some good advice about writing lyrics.
I just got excited of a tune I write, after two years long writer's block.
My lyrical skills are a bit rusty atm.

Cheers!

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:36 pm

Hi,

I would suggest http://songstuff.com

Most of the discussion there center around lyrics by singer songwriter types.

Tapper Mike

Tricky-Loops · Post by **Tricky-Loops** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:43 pm

If you want to learn writing better lyrics, my recommendation is the book "Shortcuts to Hit Songwriting" by Robin Frederick (Taxi Publishing).

While (unfortunately) I didn't found much about songwriting in this book (i. e. rhythm, melody, harmony), there are TONS of great tips & exercises about how to write better lyrics (and about song structure as well)!

bluedad · Post by **bluedad** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:09 pm

Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Patterson.
He teaches a free course occasionally at one of the online learning places (can't remember the name)
as well as teaching at Berkley.

deep'n'dark · Post by **deep'n'dark** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:08 am

Thank you everyone, I'll check your provided sources out. My native language is Estonian + I speak perfect Finnish too (I actually live in Finalnd), but english is what may be a bit harder for me to write.

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:23 am

After writing songs for over 30 years, I don't necessarily consider myself a great musician but I do consider myself a good lyricist. And I suggest you spend more time listening to and studying lyrics you like AND writing as much as possible before I'd recommend reading books about lyrics*. And I think you have to have something to say and you'll probably not find that in a book. That comes from within. and I am of the sincere belief you have to try a lot and fail a lot and write a bunch of crappy lyrics before you can truly focus your inner voice and write good lyrics.

So write EVERYTHING down, every cool thing you or others say or that just pops in your head. Never know when THAT will be the phrase that makes a song really coalesce. Keep a notebook or 2 or eleventy, but WRITE! It's truly the only way... in my not-so-humble opinion.

* I might be apt to read one by Elvis Costello or Bob Dylan or Peter Gabriel or someone I actually respected as a lyricist before I'd read some random textbook for sale on Amazon by someone I hadn't heard of as a lyricist.

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:36 am

I agree with Deb - inspiration can come from anywhere and at any time, but what helps open up that sense of what is a good lyric and what is not it to be critical of others' lyrics.

It also depends what you want - if you're looking to write a hit song, then you probably want to read those books and learn all the clichéd phrases that the kids are using these days™. But if you're looking for something beyond that, then I would suggest leaning on those books too much - good lyrics might come from a how to book, but *great* lyrics come from experience and just working on finding out what are the right channels for you.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:02 pm

the thing about a lyric that really comes across is the rhythm really works, and it works in how it scans vis a vis the pulse or beat.
you need a good sense of the downbeat or you'll wind up with issues down the road.

Tricky-Loops · Post by **Tricky-Loops** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:19 pm

debra1rlo wrote:* I might be apt to read one by Elvis Costello or Bob Dylan or Peter Gabriel or someone I actually respected as a lyricist before I'd read some random textbook for sale on Amazon by someone I hadn't heard of as a lyricist.

I don't know how many songs Pat Pattison has written but Robin Frederick surely has written hundreds of successful songs. I think there is nothing wrong to learn from these people...

ras.s · Post by **ras.s** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:29 pm

Some IMHO :

Some people talk without saying anything - if you avoid that, you're a good lyricist. A single sentence that makes a point is usually what I memorize about the lyrics of song (and make it extra effective by making it come at just the right moment). If it's not there, then I'll probably feel indifferent about the song.

If you write in finnish, use various suffixes and bends (liitteitä & taivutuksia) to your benefit. It makes the language of the lyric more colourful and perhaps easier to strike the listener. In a recent text I used the word 'pikaistuksissansahan' and I thought it was rather clever (it also takes me two bars to spit that out). In english that single word would take atleast a sentence and even then the meaning wouldn't be the same. Also avoid that way of simplifying verbs (he katoaa verrattuna he katoavat, jälkimmäinen on oikeaoppinen), it's really irritating and even more so when it's on a recording.

Also study music by Juice Leskinen, he was a mastermind.

Edit: Ja Gösta Sundqvist aka Leevi and the Leavings, huhhu!

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:59 pm

imo the practiced lyricists nurture semantic dynamism, that silly/perverse appreciation for all the meanings a sound can have. the ones i remember often permit multiple interpretations, eg. heart's "nothin at all" can be mistaken, in all of its parts, for a song about how great someone was in the bedroom, which it isn't.

a good copy editor develops the ability to spot things like

lets
instigate
ebullient
sincerity

which of course also sends the message 'lies' when viewed as a column. a good lyricist develops (over time and bowls) a sense of when they will be misinterpreted and perhaps has a bit of fun with it. i appreciate lyrics that let you take out of them what you put into them/hear what you want to hear.. facetiousness teaches uncertainty/objectivity/strong interpretation skills. and, imo, a good way to develop this skill is to let it happen when it happens, all you need to worry about is recognising it and don't get in its way. if it's quality, i'll remember it when it fits, i don't need to take inventory and check through lists.

i don't write lyrics that take too much work.

when someone is remembering a song, they can eg. mix up lines from different verses if they are interchangeable, which can influence their interpretation, so there's an extra place to nestle meaning

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:39 pm

Tricky-Loops wrote:Robin Frederick surely has written hundreds of successful songs. I think there is nothing wrong to learn from these people...

The problem here is that I have no clue who Robin Frederick is, and when I Googled him (only to find out he is a she) the first site I got was her own web site, which looks like the typical sales site for an informercial.

Some searching found lists of songs that I had never heard of. When I read her bio it seems that she writes songs for Disney artists...I think I'll pass...

Tricky-Loops · Post by **Tricky-Loops** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:55 pm

robojam wrote:
Tricky-Loops wrote:Robin Frederick surely has written hundreds of successful songs. I think there is nothing wrong to learn from these people...
The problem here is that I have no clue who Robin Frederick is, and when I Googled him (only to find out he is a she) the first site I got was her own web site, which looks like the typical sales site for an informercial.

Some searching found lists of songs that I had never heard of. When I read her bio it seems that she writes songs for Disney artists...I think I'll pass...

However, I can only recommend her books, especially "Shortcuts to Hit Songwriting" which I have read several times. The book even has a lot of great reviews at Amazon...

I was a bit disappointed that there weren't more tips about songwriting (rhythm, melody, harmony) but the tutorials about lyric writing & song structure are great...

(The reason why you won't find uber-great lyrics in my songs is that I cannot sing that good any more!)

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:11 pm

If you're trying to write hit songs then I get that it might help to use a book like that, but based on her website I know that it's not for me. Having had to put up with the lazy ass shit that passes for songwriting on the Disney channel because my daughter watches it, that just put another nail in the coffin for me.

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:15 pm

robojam wrote:
Tricky-Loops wrote:Robin Frederick surely has written hundreds of successful songs. I think there is nothing wrong to learn from these people...
The problem here is that I have no clue who Robin Frederick is, and when I Googled him (only to find out he is a she) the first site I got was her own web site, which looks like the typical sales site for an informercial.

Some searching found lists of songs that I had never heard of. When I read her bio it seems that she writes songs for Disney artists...I think I'll pass...

Thanks Mike for clicking that link and taking one for the team.

I have read books like these thru the years and found little substance within, much like all the journalism and writing courses I have taken. WASTE OF MY MONEY AND TIME.

Writing is something that really can't be book learned, it really has to be learned from experience.