Cakewalk Sonar X3

[careyletendre]

we are talking about completely different things. I meant specifically from the file browser on the right, and as it seems the only stuff different is plug in related stuff.

Maybe just stop being so adamant about stuff you (apparently) don't know about?

Get used to it. He does it all the time; mostly just to get a rise out of people. It's quite sad.

Carey

[riley4reason]

Who's good at creating polls? It would be good, free feedback for Cakewalk.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[careyletendre]

we are talking about completely different things. I meant specifically from the file browser on the right, and as it seems the only stuff different is plug in related stuff.

Maybe just stop being so adamant about stuff you (apparently) don't know about?

Get used to it. He does it all the time; mostly just to get a rise out of people. It's quite sad.

Carey

No intention at all to do that. Like lawrence a lot and would never purposely upset him. I didn't know s1 had so much drag and drop functionality and happy ive been educated. If you bother to read the previous page, i've already given Lawrence an apology and said was right about this. But see, what YOU have done now is project when you are the one that are trying to get a rise out of me.. And then putting that on me. Lawrence and I have never ever had a minor disagreement before, I made an error, and I already KNOW that he will be ok with it. Its actually the people like you, who get upset when the issue is resolved and completely finished, that want the drama, so try to re ignite it. that's twice you've tried to pick a fight personally with me now in this topic. If that's all you can comment on, me, instead of anything else, I'd say you are the one who is quite sad. Nuff said.

You can put your hook in the water Theo but i'm not biting.

[Jace-BeOS]

I think Theo is on point. There are people who swear Sonar is "rock solid" on their system, and I think that has more to do with how they use Sonar than it does on Sonar or their system. My first version of Sonar, was Sonar (1) XL, and that was probably 6 different PC's ago. Some of the same bugs I've experienced in X2, existed in Sonar 1. I'm sorry, but I just can't let Cakewalk slide on that.

Cakewalk is well aware of the issues, but they either turn a blind eye, or say they have to "prioritize" what to work on. Well guess what, when your DAW is unstable, that should be priority number 1. Also, maybe if you didn't hold yourselves to a stupid, arbitrary annual release, you'd have more time to fix some of the issues that are fundamentally wrong with your DAW.

In one post in the forum last night, either Noel or Andrew went into a semantic arguments about the definition of what a "bug" is. They were basically arguing that yeah "Sonar hanging out in the system tray may seem like a bug to users because a process didn't close properly, but it's not really a bug because we can't reproduce it" or something like that. Hey, it's a bug when it does something that's not-intended. Cakewalk and their forum fans will rush to blame a system configuration issue or a plugin, meanwhile other DAW's on the same system running the same plugins are much more stable. That tells me it's the DAW dummy.

In the last day, I've also seen Cakewalk blame their user base for not reporting the problems enough via the Problem Reporter, or for not submitting tech support tickets. Meanwhile, their email Tech Support is essentially non-existent, and I'm sorry, but phone support is not something I have any interest in. Especially when we're dealing with bugs that have existed for years. Unless the phone support is going to run a debugger and correct the code over the phone, then I'm not sure what they'd do. Most of the bugs I'm talking about just pop randomly for seemingly no reason (Disk May Be Full error on record, Sonar not fulling closing properly). And the problem reporter? I've had some success there with smaller, more easily producible bugs, but not with the bigger instability issues that plague Sonar.

Look at any Sonar thread on any forum. There's always a number of former users complaining about stability and how they were forced to abandon it as a DAW. Then there's people who'll reply and say "that's weird, it's always been rock solid here." While all DAW's will crash at some point, I just don't see that level of buggyness being reported on Reaper forums, or on the Studio One forums. It's just Sonar.

And as Theo said, the proof is in the pudding. I don't care WHY it doesn't work. Or WHO made it not work. I just care that it doesn't work. And like Theo, I've reported issues to Cakewalk, I've been willing to work with them, it's just gone nowhere.

If Sonar X3 is the most stable DAW ever, then great. I'll be back on board. The reality is that it won't be.

i'm in the same boat (or titanic) as these guys. i spent a lot of money on Cakewalk and the results are not worth it. i care about detail and reliability. i am NOT content to excuse everything away. i understand developing enough to know that there is a lot to deal with and that things outside your control can make you look bad. But at the same time, this is what they do to themselves by not finishing the product before trying to market a new version. Get it right and then add features. But they don't care. They're content enough with what they do to keep doing it, and obviously their dedicated fans are there enough for them to drink their PR and be able to believe in it themselves. They aren't seeing themselves for what they are and then they take offense when people outside their little clan point out the bad smells that Cakewalk are immune to. But i get the impression that the dedicated user base is shrinking, the longer those users are around (because they're running out of excuses for Cakewalk).

i myself have submitted bugs, which have been verified, only to have that verification nowhere on record when a Cakewalk person here on the forum comes along to ask me to detail my bug experiences for him. Dude, i DID that already with your official support people. i had a similar experience with my Cakewalk User ID being non-existent, but then it was there after all. Work it out inside your own house, because that house is a friggin mess.

[hibidy]

I'll jump out of this thing. Y'awl are crazy.

[gyokimae]

Running the 64bit version.
So far the only glitch I have is with Slate's VTM which introduces pop noises while changing parameters.
Anyone having the same problem?

Also, EQilibrium/VST2 crashes the host as soon as play back begins, but this can be avoided by making sure to use the VST3 version.


Other than VTM not running smoothly, I am quite happy with the upgrade.
My transition from 8.5 to X2 was better than I thought in terms of handling the new design and work flow, but there were other factors that turned me off. Disability to delete orphaned envelopes, difficulty to customize track colors, a bug where the time line cursor randomly becomes invisible... these all seem to be resolved in X3. Cake should promote more about the changes under the hood rather than the out dated plugs newly bundled.


If you are like me, stressed out by X2, tried out other DAWs in hope to migrate but could not find an alternative after all, I highly recommend upgrading today.

[Jace-BeOS]

It amazes me when people complain about bad code in Cakewalk Sonar. I have been using Cakewalk Sonar for several years and have had nothing but success with it.

Many times, bad code is not bad code at all (and it pertains to more than Sonar). Far too often, the culprit is SUE, which is much harder to fix and repair than bad code. For those who do not know about SUE, read on.
...

I almost forgot to say what SUE is. SUE is Stupid User Error

That's right. Let's blame every bit of justified anger and irritation that users have with the products they've spent money and time on... ON THE USERS THEMSELVES. Great idea. NOT. The most common form of redirection away from the reality of a problem is to blame the problem on the people it hurts, to marginalize them as idiots/whiners, and to present the flaws and defects as if non-existent. Most frequent type of ignorant computer industry apologetics. Blame the user. Blame the victim. So wrong on every level. This is the thing i HATE about Windows and Windows software in general. It's the same attitude in the Linux camp. It's a bad attitude to have and is why i stopped being a tech (i couldn't stand my peers being such arrogant jerks to our clients, whether up front or to their backs).

[Jace-BeOS]

@haggardstudios

Grats.. you are the one of the lucky ones.

8.5 repeatedly crashed my top of the line, 64bit streamlined Win7, custom built 8-core monster, randomly.. daily.. for no apparent reason.

Switched to S1, transferred the troubled projects over from 8.5.. never had an issue with them, or any other projects since.. and still have never crashed the thing.

Don't get me started on V-Vocal...

Did you by any chance run firewire interface of any sort?

I evaluated some firewire stuff when building my new daw 3 years ago.
I had some TC Electronics drivers that did BSOD with S 8.5 - but not Reaper.
As soon as I activated an audio input on a track - pooooof...

I left firewire and didn't keep those. Went back to RME internal cards.

Anyway, just a thought...

Yes, Firewire support within the OS on Windows is the utter pits. And i'm going to rant here (not at you):

Sure we might casually blame firewire. All my interfaces are firewire, since i had to stop using PCI cards (because of resource conflicts that are not solvable, thanks to architectural stupidity in the engineering of all said products, including my motherboard(s), sound cards and Microsoft's OS). i had PCI cards just plain stop working at all. Wouldn't be detected (Sound Blaster Xfi, Echo Audio Mona, Echo Audio Layla 3G) after some point in my machine, on the motherboard. Works fine in another machine, a cheap Dell, but not in my custom built, more expensive, more effort involved in choosing parts self-build. Eff that shite. So then i have no PCI to use, so... what to use? Firewire. It's the most likely professional audio interface to use next.

On Windows, my firewire bus will crash if something is unplugged. Sometimes. Not always. But firewire is supposed to be hot pluggable. i don't have such issues on my Macs. i know... lets blame Apple for firewire, rather than blaming Microsoft for not updating their firewire bus driver since Windows XP, and then changing it in Win 7 (so i hear) which made people have to remove it and go back to an older version to solve more problems created than solved. i've had a firewire disconnect cause the USB bus to crash. In fact, Windows thinks it's the same bus (Windows told me a USB device was disconnected, but the change was on the firewire bus, and the firewire bus was still working at that time...).

Yet another reason why i think the entire platform is a disaster. i WELCOME its death in the market. The landscape is changing, and people are terrified of change... but i'm all for it.

And lets blame the user for these technical glitches, right? Why should we buy product based on specification? We should be obsessively detailed in all the millions of ways various technology from various vendors does or does not work in combination with various other stuff. Lets obsess over who's chipsets are in use, or which brand of memory works with which brand of motherboard (regardless of the actual specifications that should negate such analyses). Let's obsess over controlling all the automated crap that every vendor adds to our system tray or system services, and blame users for not controlling all that when Microsoft and software vendors are turning our systems into cesspools with every product install, and then tell users not to customize things, because developers don't test customizations... It goes on and on...

Apparently this voodoo is desirable to all these geek system builders who claim Apple are "dumbing us down" by making "walled gardens" and an actual focus on average users instead of elite techies. Microsoft should be doing the same damn thing, but they don't know how to. Even right now they're trying to figure it out by shifting focus onto hardware, but are still doing the same things they've always done... (ie licensing deals to dominate the market, rather than superior product that lures people in by way of being enjoyable and easy to use). Then we have the Linux advocates shouting "pick me pick me pick me!" and trying to convince us that Linux is ready for everyone, while simultaneously decrying any lack of tech geek specialist knowledge by users.

And then we get dudes coming into a thread describing the system voodoo in his own setup, and then calling it "STUPID USER ERROR" instead of letting us point the finger at the rotten system engineering... OMFG the indoctrination that screams.

[tongsong]

very disappoint again the cake doesnt do any improvements on notation and midi stuff, instead its like a 3rd parties plugins cocktail,looking at the demonstration of cubase and pro tools makes me wanna cry, after all these yrs paying cakewalk(since pro audio i think i have to stop and jump boat....

[trimph1]

It amazes me when people complain about bad code in Cakewalk Sonar. I have been using Cakewalk Sonar for several years and have had nothing but success with it.

Many times, bad code is not bad code at all (and it pertains to more than Sonar). Far too often, the culprit is SUE, which is much harder to fix and repair than bad code. For those who do not know about SUE, read on.
...

I almost forgot to say what SUE is. SUE is Stupid User Error

That's right. Let's blame every bit of justified anger and irritation that users have with the products they've spent money and time on... ON THE USERS THEMSELVES. Great idea. NOT. The most common form of redirection away from the reality of a problem is to blame the problem on the people it hurts, to marginalize them as idiots/whiners, and to present the flaws and defects as if non-existent. Most frequent type of ignorant computer industry apologetics. Blame the user. Blame the victim. So wrong on every level. This is the thing i HATE about Windows and Windows software in general. It's the same attitude in the Linux camp. It's a bad attitude to have and is why i stopped being a tech (i couldn't stand my peers being such arrogant jerks to our clients, whether up front or to their backs).

If it was all users fault then why all the bug fixes, patches and et cetera?

hhhmmmmmmmn?

[whyterabbyt]

It amazes me when people complain about bad code in Cakewalk Sonar. I have been using Cakewalk Sonar for several years and have had nothing but success with it.

Many times, bad code is not bad code at all (and it pertains to more than Sonar). Far too often, the culprit is SUE, which is much harder to fix and repair than bad code. For those who do not know about SUE, read on.
...

I almost forgot to say what SUE is. SUE is Stupid User Error

That's right. Let's blame every bit of justified anger and irritation that users have with the products they've spent money and time on... ON THE USERS THEMSELVES. Great idea. NOT. The most common form of redirection away from the reality of a problem is to blame the problem on the people it hurts, to marginalize them as idiots/whiners, and to present the flaws and defects as if non-existent. Most frequent type of ignorant computer industry apologetics. Blame the user. Blame the victim. So wrong on every level. This is the thing i HATE about Windows and Windows software in general. It's the same attitude in the Linux camp. It's a bad attitude to have and is why i stopped being a tech (i couldn't stand my peers being such arrogant jerks to our clients, whether up front or to their backs).

If it was all users fault then why all the bug fixes, patches and et cetera?

You didnt fall for the bit where someone didnt say 'everything' and then got jumped by a whole group of people saying he said 'everything', did you?

He's right, sometimes it is the user's fault. You're right, sometimes its not. Dont let the lynch mob distract you from remembering that both cases are 'sometimes'.

[JoseC.]

It seems like many people just don't understand the most important changes, like ARA and the new VST engine, and just pay attention to the icing on the Cake (plugins and such). Just this seems to justify that Cakewalk need to sprinkle that candy over what seems a major technology upgrade. ARA brings drag and drop monophonic audio to midi (poly with the full Melodyne license), and opens the door to the possibility of integrating a third party notation tool in the near future.

[JoseC.]

I was replying to tonsong above, BTW

[J4R1O]

very disappoint again the cake doesnt do any improvements on notation and midi stuff, instead its like a 3rd parties plugins cocktail,looking at the demonstration of cubase and pro tools makes me wanna cry, after all these yrs paying cakewalk(since pro audio i think i have to stop and jump boat....

They shouldn't be showing off with that ridiculous amount of bundeled plug-ins. They should be showing off with the DAW itself, if it's stable.

I have no plans to upgrade X1. I don't want to support any company that doesn't fix their bug issues and who treats its customers like they do. Just purchased X2? Ok then, now you should buy X3 and play with the bundeled plug-ins.