"Logic Pro X will eventually be sandboxed"

[pc999]

So many developers worried with closed formats, why dont you try to get together virtually and develop a open format?

I am sure that some hosts would appreciate the idea (reaper, Bitwig and Renoise comes to mind along side every other that want to be seen as a replacement for the big ones like studio one pro)...

We have seen harder things with lesser resources in the open source community.

[Tronam]

@tronam
What concerns me is not Apple acting alone - it is the potential for a more wide-spread reversal of the sort of spirit which brought us MIDI and open plugin systems in the first place.

If you are long enough in the tooth, you will probably know that Roland, SCI and Yamaha etc had their own digital sequencing and control systems - all proprietary protocols and connectors etc. You could hook up a bunch of Roland sequencers/synths/drum machines etc and - whoa - you had a whole "band" playing!

By some miracle, all those companies abandoned their "not invented here" way of looking at things and, after sitting cross-legged in a circle singing Kumbaya for the requisite period, embraced a completely open published spec - MIDI - and here we are 30 years later. VST and ASIO have also allowed a great diversity of hardware and software to work together on affordable consumer computers opening the possibilities we KVR denizens have been enjoying for longer than I would care to remember.

All of this - which is arguably an outgrowth of the sort of unfashionable (on Wall Street) "hippie" values that begat the open internet - could go away. One by one, each company could decide to maximise its own profit and start sending 7 year olds back into the dark satanic mills - oops - I mean axe open standards and block unencumbered market access for small players - the sort of people who have sprung up all over the world and given us Voxengo, RGC Audio, FxP and U-He etc. If you make it too much of a hassle, or too bureaucratic or too much like working several days a week to enrich a big company, the next guy like Urs is going to just do something else with his skills.

I'd think that a true "hippies" value plugin system would be open source and maintained by the community, not by a single corporation. Yamaha holds the cards now and I'd suspect they care little about VST beyond how it benefits Cubendo and the sale of their products, but I hope I'm wrong about that.

MIDI was that rarest of rare exceptions to the rule that established businesses usually want to be the boss of their domain. They tend to have their own ideas of what the best way is to accomplish something and so it usually works out more like VHS, Facebook or VST where whomever digs in their heels the earliest and/or gets the most traction wins out in the end as the others fade into insignificance. The capitalist market is usually cruel to the losers. Without a company like Apple propping up AU (or Google propping up G+ for that matter) with their deep pockets and influence, I doubt it could have ever gained a foothold and we'd be in a single standard plugin market now (save for Protools perhaps). You're absolutely correct that VST has led to an explosion of innovation in virtual plugins by countless developers, but I also can't help remembering its glacial stewardship by Steinberg. The VST standard is 17 years old now. Can you honestly say that the format itself has grown and improved at a rate anywhere near the level of innovation exhibited by the indy developer community? It took 3 years for VST to accept MIDI and 12 years before VSTi could even accept audio inputs. One of the potential downsides of a (almost) monopoly standard maintained by a single company like this is that improvements are constrained by whomever is in control of it.

I'm not yet convinced that Apple pushing for sandboxed AU is a doomsday scenario. It does hint at the potential for further convergence of OSX and iOS though. What if this made it possible for iOS8 or 9 to support AU plugins on the iPad or other future iOS touch computers? New potential mobile markets for plugin devs might not be such a bad thing. Yes, it's a regulated ecosystem, but it's difficult to argue with the amount of innovative forward momentum in mobile music software and hardware over the past few years because of iOS, the most widely uniform mobile operating system with low latency audio, MIDI control and inter-application audio. Walled gardens can have their benefits sometimes.

Another regulated ecosystem which reminds me more of the Universal Audio plugin sales model is Propellerhead's Rack Extension store. I can appreciate how much easier it would be for 3rd party developers to only have to support one universal format, but I can also sympathize with companies like Propellerhead for wanting to create their own plugin format from scratch unconstrained by Steinberg's format limitations. It might divide developer attention, but it can also allow for plugins to go beyond what the VST standard is capable of with more modular routing of internal plugin components. Even if this is done in a way that maintains tight or restrictive control over the user experience, I'm not so quick to throw them or anyone else under the bus if they're exploring new formats that open up different possibilities. The market should be diverse enough by now to support them.

[valhallasound]

You're absolutely correct that VST has led to an explosion of innovation in virtual plugins by countless developers, but I also can't help remembering its glacial stewardship by Steinberg. The VST standard is 17 years old now. Can you honestly say that the format itself has grown and improved at a rate anywhere near the level of innovation exhibited by the indy developer community? It took 3 years for VST to accept MIDI and 12 years before VSTi could even accept audio inputs. One of the potential downsides of a (almost) monopoly standard maintained by a single company like this is that improvements are constrained by whomever is in control of it.

The downside of innovation is obsolescence.

VST 2.4 is a bit old and crusty. So are 1/4" phone connectors. Those date back to 1878. I have gear from the 1960s through modern day that uses 1/4" plugs, and all of them hook up nicely.

The point is, old and crusty standards are useful, in that they are STANDARDS. A standard that doesn't change is a good standard, if you want to have any sort of longevity for those things created to be compatible with that standard. If the standard isn't perfect, whatever. Work around it. Or use a different standard, but don't break the existing standard.

Sean Costello

[secretkillerofnames]

The downside of innovation is obsolescence.

VST 2.4 is a bit old and crusty. So are 1/4" phone connectors. Those date back to 1878. I have gear from the 1960s through modern day that uses 1/4" plugs, and all of them hook up nicely.

The point is, old and crusty standards are useful, in that they are STANDARDS. A standard that doesn't change is a good standard, if you want to have any sort of longevity for those things created to be compatible with that standard. If the standard isn't perfect, whatever. Work around it. Or use a different standard, but don't break the existing standard.

Sean Costello

Have to say - the UberMod Audio Unit is an essential part of my Numerology setup.

[Tronam]

The downside of innovation is obsolescence.

VST 2.4 is a bit old and crusty. So are 1/4" phone connectors. Those date back to 1878. I have gear from the 1960s through modern day that uses 1/4" plugs, and all of them hook up nicely.

The point is, old and crusty standards are useful, in that they are STANDARDS. A standard that doesn't change is a good standard, if you want to have any sort of longevity for those things created to be compatible with that standard. If the standard isn't perfect, whatever. Work around it. Or use a different standard, but don't break the existing standard.

Sean Costello

That's true, and I suppose the more time that passes, the more challenging it is to migrate to something new. What are the ramifications of Steinberg's sunsetting of VST 2.4? Do they have any intention of letting it go and opening it up, like Adobe did with PDF? Or are they worried that doing so would dampen any incentive to embrace VST3?

[Jace-BeOS]

Sorry, Ben, but Linux doesn't accommodate me. i've been a tech guy all my life, and i still can't stand Linux. It never felt comfortable or sensible. It felt inconsistent, clumsy, ugly, unfriendly, demanding... Despite great strides in improving the user experience, it still doesn't serve me at all even today. It's not just the available software. It's the whole system. It demands more specialist knowledge than Mac OS X (or even Windows, though i hate Windows pretty much for the same reason, yet it is more usable).

Serious users want to get work done with their tools, not program on and recompile their tools. Those that like programming and compiling are different kinds of users, and more of a minority. Catering toward casual use isn't always bad. Freeing the user of the demands of specialist knowledge allows them to get more work done. Catering to the ease of use, ease of access, lowering the barriers to entry, etc., are all good.

The development ideals and attitudes in the Linux community have pretty much been anti-user; hostile to those who don't WANT to obsess over technical details and specialized knowledge. It already requires specialized knowledge to a degree to be a musician or an artist, and more so on a computer. Adding the demand of programming and OS management on top of that is beyond undesirable. The Linux community must either stop trying to appeal to general users (because it does not honestly want them), or actually learn to cater to them. There's nothing wrong with not being a geek. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to obsess over those details. When the Linux community realizes this, things may change.

That is not the linux of todays (specially if it is a something like Ubuntu or Linux Mint).

I actually find it much faster and quite easier to use than Windows in many, many cases, sadly not audio (well things like Renoise or Tracktion4 are just as good, but you get much better performance out of the box).


I really advice to pick VirtualBox (a virtual machine host) and Ubuntu or ubuntu studio to see how things changed. (that should take less than 20m)

I dont meant to make you a ubuntu user, just to see how much different it is from what you think it is.

i've inspected, and even tried, several Linux distributions over the years (including Ubuntu), and several software products included in the Ubuntu Studio "kit" and found them all lacking in user experience and GUI design/effectiveness (GIMP, Audacity, Ardour, Blender), and buggy as hell (Inkscape, which is a damn shame). Ardour looks 100 times worse than Reaper, design-wise. Ubuntu and Mint Linux themselves look prettier than ever before, but it still is a shell on top of a geek system. The wifi menu in Ubuntu and the hard to read icon texts on Mint's desktop are the first thing that i notice. And is that two variations of Mint just to pick a desktop environment? Is all software working happily between the two(five?) competing desktop environments today, or do you still have to pick one or the other and not be able to have a consistent experience across all software? (do apps still have problems sharing data with copy/paste or is this solved?)

Driver support is non-existent for my audio hardware, and questionable for my other stuff. Any chance Ubuntu will support high PPI displays in the near future, because that's where i'm headed as soon as possible. Does smooth scrolling exist systemwide? Is anything systemwide? (that's why i stopped using Chrome, BTW; it was the only browser i used that didn't scroll smoothly; WTF).

As much as open source adherents despise Apple and Microsoft, i see Windows and Mac OS X design choices copied shamelessly in the many strains of Linux out there. Some look better executed than others, but i'm not going to test out five editions of Linux to suss out which one is the least internally inconsistent (odds are, it's the one that's most "in beta" and unsupported by binaries, meaning i'd have to compile apps to get them to maybe run... or is that whole "compile your own binaries thing" in order to use software now a definite part of the past with Linux?).

Hell, many apps still can't even manage to render their text labels without hard to read serif fonts, poor alignment, or even running right off the readable area.

Ubuntu Studio's own website can't even bother to show real-world examples of use. Instead, the website's tour shows the usual Linux "here's a screen cap with simple crap in it i made in five seconds" examples. This does not encourage belief in the product itself to actually deliver with media professionals, or even serious hobbyists.

Support for my existing cross-platform software is nearly non-existent. i will not run WINE for games or audio because the results are inconsistent (i had Tetroid 2012 running fine on one Mac with WINE, but it failed to work on the other and there's no clues in the error messages as to why). Maybe for 2D graphics, but i don't know that there's support there for what i run (Photoshop/Illustrator CS6, Painter 12), and i'm not paying for a WINE distro like Crossover Office or whatever it's called, to use my paid licenses on a "free" OS. i do have a Renoise license, but i don't really use it on Mac or Windows, anyway, since i stopped doing tracker stuff. While i have a license for Tracktion, it's version 2. Upgrading to the Linux version might be within my means, but senseless because all my plugs are Windows/Mac licenses and none of that stuff exists on Linux (except Pianoteq?).

Choice choice choice... bah. i agree with the following:
http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/07 ... hoice.html
http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html

Most important point, and end of rant: Linux doesn't offer me anything i don't already have on my Mac, and it asks me to lose a lot, and add a lot of complexity. If this were back in the old days when i was involved with the alternative OS scene, i'd probably sacrifice some to use an alternative. But not now. OS X is actually pretty damn good and there's just a little i miss from BeOS (and i see custom tags are coming in Mavericks). i've invested heavily in products that let me get work done, and i've gotten work done. My Mac stuff actually works rather well for me (except for the failed GPU, but that's not Apple-specific). My Windows machine will never be anything other than what it is: a Windows disaster. There's no reason to run Linux on it; not only would that solve nothing, it NEEDS to run Windows to use the Windows software i own (including my small library of games that aren't cross platform). The only OS change that might happen there is to go from Win Vista to 7 or 8 (but, since i'm poor and MS OS licenses are obscenely expensive, it's probably a dead issue... and a free Linux doesn't solve my needs there). So, while i appreciate that there are options to Windows... i've already taken the best one i can see.

[bmrzycki]

linux. someday maybe.

In theory, serious users should be switching to Linux in droves because Windows and OSX are increasingly catering to casual users. In practice, though, plugin devs and I/O manufacturers can't adopt Linux because the ecosystem doesn't exist there, yet...then move to Linux ( or SteamOS ... ) when the time is right.

Linux doesn't accommodate me. i've been a tech guy all my life, and i still can't stand Linux. It never felt comfortable or sensible. It felt inconsistent, clumsy, ugly, unfriendly, demanding... Despite great strides in improving the user experience, it still doesn't serve me at all even today.

I'm very interested in Valve's SteamOS. Valve has stated their goal is to make Audio and Video as good, if not better than, Windows and OS X. They have a strong incentive to do so too -- games run better and Valve has control of the quality of the gaming experience. They no longer are at the mercy of ATI or NVidia's driver release cycle and the API whims of MS and Apple.

I'm cautiously optimistic that SteamOS will slowly become a viable desktop OS too. They're selling non-game software in their store already. For plugin and DAW developers this might turn out to be an interesting point of sale. For those that don't want Steam I can't imagine Valve would lock you out from installing software outside of Steam.

My biggest concern is Valve *does* decide to lock it down to a Steam-only and Internet always required experience. That makes it just as undesirable to me as any iOS device or the PHead shop.

I'd love to move to Linux and away from this stupid app store paywall universe Apple and Microsoft keep trying to convince us is all we need. If done right Valve might just finally crack the nut that so many others have failed to do: consumer use of Linux on the PC.

[extramedium]

App Store model for plugins would be rubbish - no demos, no refunds, no upgrades and no resales. And of course, all vetted by and cuts to Apple. Yummy.

I don't know why everyone keeps saying this. There are plenty of "demos" as well as upgrades on the app store, and no reason why there wouldn't be in the future. Release a crippled version for free, unlock full-features through in-app purchase. Or have 2 versions on the app store.

Personally I'm more likely to buy something from the app store just because I know it will always be there, no matter how many times I change my computer or wipe the hard drive, all I'll have to do is log in and download everything in one step. No more looking up keys and re-downloading files from 7 different developer's sites.

I've never wanted to resell a plug-in so it's easy for me to say "who cares" but I can see how it might be a loss for some.

[pc999]

i've inspected, and even tried, several Linux distributions over the years (including Ubuntu), and several software products included in the Ubuntu Studio "kit" and found them all lacking in user experience and GUI design/effectiveness (GIMP, Audacity, Ardour, Blender), and buggy as hell (Inkscape, which is a damn shame). Ardour looks 100 times worse than Reaper, design-wise. Ubuntu and Mint Linux themselves look prettier than ever before, but it still is a shell on top of a geek system. The wifi menu in Ubuntu and the hard to read icon texts on Mint's desktop are the first thing that i notice. And is that two variations of Mint just to pick a desktop environment? Is all software working happily between the two(five?) competing desktop environments today, or do you still have to pick one or the other and not be able to have a consistent experience across all software? (do apps still have problems sharing data with copy/paste or is this solved?)

Driver support is non-existent for my audio hardware, and questionable for my other stuff. Any chance Ubuntu will support high PPI displays in the near future, because that's where i'm headed as soon as possible. Does smooth scrolling exist systemwide? Is anything systemwide? (that's why i stopped using Chrome, BTW; it was the only browser i used that didn't scroll smoothly; WTF).

As much as open source adherents despise Apple and Microsoft, i see Windows and Mac OS X design choices copied shamelessly in the many strains of Linux out there. Some look better executed than others, but i'm not going to test out five editions of Linux to suss out which one is the least internally inconsistent (odds are, it's the one that's most "in beta" and unsupported by binaries, meaning i'd have to compile apps to get them to maybe run... or is that whole "compile your own binaries thing" in order to use software now a definite part of the past with Linux?).

Hell, many apps still can't even manage to render their text labels without hard to read serif fonts, poor alignment, or even running right off the readable area.

Ubuntu Studio's own website can't even bother to show real-world examples of use. Instead, the website's tour shows the usual Linux "here's a screen cap with simple crap in it i made in five seconds" examples. This does not encourage belief in the product itself to actually deliver with media professionals, or even serious hobbyists.

Support for my existing cross-platform software is nearly non-existent. i will not run WINE for games or audio because the results are inconsistent (i had Tetroid 2012 running fine on one Mac with WINE, but it failed to work on the other and there's no clues in the error messages as to why). Maybe for 2D graphics, but i don't know that there's support there for what i run (Photoshop/Illustrator CS6, Painter 12), and i'm not paying for a WINE distro like Crossover Office or whatever it's called, to use my paid licenses on a "free" OS. i do have a Renoise license, but i don't really use it on Mac or Windows, anyway, since i stopped doing tracker stuff. While i have a license for Tracktion, it's version 2. Upgrading to the Linux version might be within my means, but senseless because all my plugs are Windows/Mac licenses and none of that stuff exists on Linux (except Pianoteq?).

Choice choice choice... bah. i agree with the following:
http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/07 ... hoice.html
http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html

Most important point, and end of rant: Linux doesn't offer me anything i don't already have on my Mac, and it asks me to lose a lot, and add a lot of complexity. If this were back in the old days when i was involved with the alternative OS scene, i'd probably sacrifice some to use an alternative. But not now. OS X is actually pretty damn good and there's just a little i miss from BeOS (and i see custom tags are coming in Mavericks). i've invested heavily in products that let me get work done, and i've gotten work done. My Mac stuff actually works rather well for me (except for the failed GPU, but that's not Apple-specific). My Windows machine will never be anything other than what it is: a Windows disaster. There's no reason to run Linux on it; not only would that solve nothing, it NEEDS to run Windows to use the Windows software i own (including my small library of games that aren't cross platform). The only OS change that might happen there is to go from Win Vista to 7 or 8 (but, since i'm poor and MS OS licenses are obscenely expensive, it's probably a dead issue... and a free Linux doesn't solve my needs there). So, while i appreciate that there are options to Windows... i've already taken the best one i can see.

Sorry for the late reply, I have een lurking on BWS threads.

Like I said that is a completely different experience from the ones I have, recently, since the beginning of the year I am using almost Linux only, besides audio (Bitwig will probably chance that) and few games, every time fewer games.

Most of the things I do I even find them easier on Linux only a few are a bit harder, like updating the gfx driver (on Linux mint is as easy as Windows, last time I tried, you download and click or use the tool that come with it). I am a completely terminal noob (I followed instructions and used it a few times to try stuff, but I cant use it on my own).


About desktop environments, you can do anything with any desktop, or even have several desktop environments installed and change them at login, according to your mood, and you can change the font size of even style in many of them (haven't tried them all) or the theme of your desktop to fit your eyes better.

Now it is true that you dont have as many apps on linux, but I found most of the alternatives good enough, and many more commercial apps are coming (from audio, BWS, Tracktion, Reaper (?)) to games (SteamOS) to games editors (Leadwerks)...

And BTW I found Inkscape instable on W7 but rock solid on linux.


On the topic of lossing with mac, yah I loose a lot, mostly 2x the money for a pc, then I can be worry free about most of the stuff if something goes wrong I know I can get a cheap component for pc and a OS for it that wont try to nullifies my licence just because there is a new HDD or CPU. Then I know that NSA/CIA isnt looking at my HDD (as easily) or getting my fingerprints.


And most of all I am not worrying that Logic will be sandboxed


Anyway what is best for me may not be best for you but what you describ, may be true a few years ago, but mostly, not now, not anymore and certainly I dont need mac prices and policies to have a kick ass pc, easly.

[b-pole]

This wrote David Nahmani , Admin of LogicProHelp.com

I haven't read the thread linked....

It seems that it would be a logical evolution of Apple's current practices to only sell Mac software through the Mac app store.

However I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure exactly how far Apple can go before the DoJ sues them for antitrust violation. Maybe someone who knows laws better than I could comment, but how did Apple get away with the App Store in the first place?

I mean, would it be okay for Ford to state: from now on the only place where you can purchase child seats, ski racks, car radios, seat covers etc. is in Ford stores. Ford stores are the only stores allowed to sell 3rd party accessories for Ford cars, and Ford will take 30% of every sale.

I don't believe it would. So what makes Apple different? I'm not sure exactly.

http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewt ... re#p523303

My opinion:

All DAW-Companies have their positive and negative sides. Steinberg, Ableton, Propellerhead, Apple.

My opinion: simply use what you like.

[Jace-BeOS]

I'm very interested in Valve's SteamOS. Valve has stated their goal is to make Audio and Video as good, if not better than, Windows and OS X. They have a strong incentive to do so too -- games run better and Valve has control of the quality of the gaming experience. They no longer are at the mercy of ATI or NVidia's driver release cycle and the API whims of MS and Apple.

They will be just as at the mercy of ATI and NVidia drivers. Even more so, actually, since there's a lot of debate and controversy over the GPU support on Linux. Apparently, most of the support runs in software rendering and the open source people are pissed at NVidia's method of Linux driver availability (you have to buy the drivers, and they're closed source).

I'm cautiously optimistic that SteamOS will slowly become a viable desktop OS too. They're selling non-game software in their store already. For plugin and DAW developers this might turn out to be an interesting point of sale. For those that don't want Steam I can't imagine Valve would lock you out from installing software outside of Steam.

My biggest concern is Valve *does* decide to lock it down to a Steam-only and Internet always required experience. That makes it just as undesirable to me as any iOS device or the PHead shop.

i expect it will be a gaming device that is for games and media playback only, not content creation. i've seen no mention, and can imagine no market benefit (to Valve) to leave it open to anything other than Steam/Steam games, and media playback. If it's a fully open OS that you can run on anything... well... how's that different from (and any more useful to content creators than) the various other flavors of Linux already out there, which have been discussed already here... At best, it is going to be like the old days when we used to create DOS boot diskettes to load a minimal environment for resource hungry games. Steam OS will be designed to accommodate Steam and nothing else. It will be designed to run effectively on living room console hardware. Anything else in it and the efficiency purpose is defeated.

I'd love to move to Linux and away from this stupid app store paywall universe Apple and Microsoft keep trying to convince us is all we need. If done right Valve might just finally crack the nut that so many others have failed to do: consumer use of Linux on the PC.

But... The Steam console, and Steam itself, IS a "stupid app store paywall universe"

[b-pole]

seems we are moving a little bit off-topic now.

[tfrog]

It's kind of weird that Logic Pro X will be sandboxed. Why would they want to do that? What exactly is sandboxing anyway, in the PC context?

[Tronam]

It's kind of weird that Logic Pro X will be sandboxed. Why would they want to do that? What exactly is sandboxing anyway, in the PC context?

It essentially means that 3rd party AU plugins loaded up into Logic will not be allowed to access other parts of the host operating system beyond their own working directory. I suspect Apple will justify this as a move toward improved stability and security. No one really knows for sure what their ultimate plan will be, but to the doomsday crowd this could mean restricting AU plugin purchase to the Mac App Store. I'm not convinced of this... yet. I think the best case scenario could be the possibility of AudioUnit plugin support in future versions of iOS for the iPad.

[pdxindy]

People have grown so accustomed to online stores like this now that the transition may eventually be unavoidable.

Ummm, no. And hell no. And never. If this is the end game, the corporatization of music creation tools with a 30% Apple/M$ tax, then I'm out.

The wonderful thing about the plugin revolution is the free-spirited innovation by independent developers sold directly to customers on an open internet. Locking that creative spirit behind a walled corporate garden is a bleaker future than I care to imagine.

+1000.

Going from a situation where I can sell my own plugins, at whatever price point works, through my own website, to a situation where I have to sell them through a single point of sales, where I give up 30% of the profit, and have to get everything approved by a mega company before I sell it, would be HUGELY DEPRESSING. Dealing with the whims of Apple/Steinberg/Avid/Pace is depressing enough as is.

I don't put Microsoft in that category, as their software practices haven't negatively impacted my plugin development (yet). Plus, Microsoft didn't hire me in 2009, which forced me to find my own career path, hence Valhalla DSP.

Sean Costello

+1000 too...

I've used Macs for 15 years, but I pretty much hate the new Apple. It is really annoying to be forced to use the Apple/Mac store.

If eventually, there are nothing but corporate enclaves that force users to 'join', I'll go back to using hardware and analog... but in the meanwhile, we are in the golden age of small developers for audio... Both plug-ins and analog modular. I so appreciate that I can go give Sean my money directly. I would hate to be forced to give Apple 30% (and of course once they have enough control, that 30 will go up)