Cakewalk Sonar X3

[Guest231427]

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well he's hardly going to do a ratner is he?

For the benefit of KVR forum members outside the UK:

Gerald Ratner was CEO of the Ratner Jewellery Group and he made a speech that contained these lines:

We also do cut-glass sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray that your butler can serve you drinks on, all for £4.95. People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?", I say, "because it's total crap."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner)

Sooooo....

What is the best alternative to Sonar?

I've been using Cakewalk stuff for a long time - from all the way back to it's DOS days. I began to get flummoxed in the latter ProAudio releases, and the Sonar just killed it for me. So much so that what creativity I had retreated to a corner and refused to leave it. I haven't touched Sonar in two years.

Like aMUSEd, I tend to work best "live" and paraphrasing his comments, Sonar loses those in-the-moment bits of magic.

Is the answer Ableton or ProTools or ???

I am currently seriously considering either Presonus Studio One v2 or Samplitude Pro X (both of these support recording the output of a VSTi - in MIDI / Audio) as an alternative to the train wreck that is Sonar X2.
Bear in mind that I don't use my DAW for live work, but use the above mentioned technique as part of my workflow.

[J4R1O]

For the benefit of KVR forum members outside the UK:

Gerald Ratner was CEO of the Ratner Jewellery Group and he made a speech that contained these lines:

We also do cut-glass sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray that your butler can serve you drinks on, all for £4.95. People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?", I say, "because it's total crap."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner

Thank you so much for sharing this! I'm havin' a nasty flu and my head is full of slime and goo, but this really made me laugh out loud!

[Brando]

Cheers!

Notice Arossa's answer however - he seems to imply that Studio won't do it.

Can you verify Andrew so there's no misunderstanding?

R-MIX SONAR will only work in SONAR X3 Producer if you previously had it in SONAR X2 Producer. If you upgraded to SONAR X3 Studio, R-MIX SONAR would not work.

Sorry, but that's kind of dumb.

R-MIX SONAR was an exclusive in SONAR X2 Producer. It got removed from SONAR X3 Producer but for customers who had purchased it in SONAR X2 Producer, we kept compatibility. Sorry you think that is dumb.

1. You introduced it in X2.
2. You removed it in the very next version!??!
3. A user of X2 Producer cannot use it in X3 Studio, if they feel like upgrading to a less expensive package because they want the core product and not all the bundled nonsense.

What is wrong with the picture here? Why do you NOT see how Cakewalk looks from the outside?

RMIx is a a plugin - not an integrated part of Sonar - it is Roland technology as is v-Vocal. So it is not included in X3. I don't see a problem in it not being included in X3 - melodyne is included with X3 but it doesn't mean it will be included in perpetuity. ARA is an integrated part of SONAR so it's exclusion would be a problem. Why doesn't Cubase still come with Neon?
I went from X2 producer to X3 Producer and have access to both RMIx and VVocal. Just like intended, just like designed. Sonar X3 ROCKS BTW. I get that you are mad at cake and that you will never buy another cake product again. But man it's time too move on.... Did I say x3 Rocks?

[trimph1]

Notice Arossa's answer however - he seems to imply that Studio won't do it.

Can you verify Andrew so there's no misunderstanding?

R-MIX SONAR will only work in SONAR X3 Producer if you previously had it in SONAR X2 Producer. If you upgraded to SONAR X3 Studio, R-MIX SONAR would not work.

Sorry, but that's kind of dumb.

R-MIX SONAR was an exclusive in SONAR X2 Producer. It got removed from SONAR X3 Producer but for customers who had purchased it in SONAR X2 Producer, we kept compatibility. Sorry you think that is dumb.

1. You introduced it in X2.
2. You removed it in the very next version!??!
3. A user of X2 Producer cannot use it in X3 Studio, if they feel like upgrading to a less expensive package because they want the core product and not all the bundled nonsense.

What is wrong with the picture here? Why do you NOT see how Cakewalk looks from the outside?

RMIx is a a plugin - not an integrated part of Sonar - it is Roland technology as is v-Vocal. So it is not included in X3. I don't see a problem in it not being included in X3 - melodyne is included with X3 but it doesn't mean it will be included in perpetuity. ARA is an integrated part of SONAR so it's exclusion would be a problem. Why doesn't Cubase still come with Neon?
I went from X2 producer to X3 Producer and have access to both RMIx and VVocal. Just like intended, just like designed. Sonar X3 ROCKS BTW. I get that you are mad at cake and that you will never buy another cake product again. But man it's time too move on.... Did I say x3 Rocks?

Don't get too excited by cake...too much sugar...

[dredd i knight]

RMIx is a a plugin - not an integrated part of Sonar - it is Roland technology as is v-Vocal. So it is not included in X3. I don't see a problem in it not being included in X3 - melodyne is included with X3 but it doesn't mean it will be included in perpetuity. ARA is an integrated part of SONAR so it's exclusion would be a problem. Why doesn't Cubase still come with Neon?
I went from X2 producer to X3 Producer and have access to both RMIx and VVocal. Just like intended, just like designed. Sonar X3 ROCKS BTW. I get that you are mad at cake and that you will never buy another cake product again. But man it's time too move on.... Did I say x3 Rocks?

I can understand why one might not be happy... Buy Sonar X2 Producer, might want to upgrade to X3 Studio, and weirdly won't be able to use something one has spent good money on (R mix in X2), in the Studio version of X3.... It belongs to you, you still want to use Sonar... Why would it be crippled in the new Studio version when the new version is precisely for people that don't want or need a heap of plugins to go with their DAW? Ok so you could still use it in X2 then bounce and take it into X3... I don't think that's entirely fair or reasonable, but that is just my opinion.

By the way Andrew I did try to reach out to you to arrange a call, but you have not replied to my pm yet I understand that you are probably very busy right now, so i'll look forward to hearing from you next week.

[Daan22]

I can understand why one might not be happy... Buy Sonar X2 Producer, might want to upgrade to X3 Studio, and weirdly won't be able to use something one has spent good money on (R mix in X2), in the Studio version of X3....

R-MIX and V-vocal aren't part of X3 Studio and were no part of X2 Studio. They are part of the Producer versions. It is competely logical that users who upgrade to the Studio version cannot use those plugins. It is a restriction that comes with the cheaper Studio versions. If those plugins are really important for people, they can simply upgrade to the Producer version.

Simply clear and fair, and Cakewalk has never promised anything else.

It belongs to you, you still want to use Sonar...

You make it sound like Cakewalk stole the plugin(s) from customers. They didn't. They still own them, and can use them with their Sonar Producer version that they are included in.

[dredd i knight]

[
You make it sound like Cakewalk stole the plugin(s) from customers. They didn't. They still own them, and can use them with their Sonar Producer version that they are included in.

It may sound like that to you, but it is a fact that they were bought fairly.
Not being able to use them in the latest version, and having to still use Producer to access them seems convoluted and long winded to me... and by extension I suppose to the poster who thought it was dumb.
I've explained why I think that way, and you can disagree with me, but don't tell me I'm accusing Cakewalk of stealing anything because that is not the case.

I don't see why a simple workaround can't be made for people in that position; I imagine a company like U-he, Camel, Fabfiletr etc would do so to their relevant customers, in a heartbeat. (Again just my opinion).

Also you seem to be missing the point that it is already in their arsenal of plug ins, (they have X2 Producer, not X2 Studio) and that they don't WANT to upgrade to Producer X3 because they have enough plug ins already.

[satYatunes]

Cakewalk has confirmed that Pro-channel modules will work as usual if someone downgrades from producer to x3 studio. I asked this question specifically in this thread only (a few pages back). If they could have done the same thing with R-Mix then it would have been better. I guess it's very hard to make it work like PC modules from a technical standpoint. The point is people who own the plugin cannot use it in latest version which of course will piss them off. I for one doesn't like keeping old versions on my DAW and doesn't like working in multiple DAWs. So the workaround is use R-MIX in X2 then bounce it out and use the audio in X3, if you want to edit then go back to X2, bounce it out again.. the open in X3.. nah.. sounds like time waste.

[miden]

And plugins from previous versions can be installed and used in later versions by simply doing a selective install of the older version, or simply leave the older version installed. For a new version Sonar installs the actual program files in a new directory while leaving all the shared plugins, midi data audio data etc etc exactly as they are (unless of course there are new plugs in the new version).

Sheesh on my PC I have 8.5, Sonar 1,2 AND 3 all installed and in Sonar 3 I can happliy call up any plugin from any previous version and use it.

Who could complain at that flexibility!!!

Simple.

[Unfocused]

It belongs to you, you still want to use Sonar...

You make it sound like Cakewalk stole the plugin(s) from customers. They didn't. They still own them, and can use them with their Sonar Producer version that they are included in.

I'm no expert, but none of us "end users" really "owns" any of the software, do we? We own a license *for* the software. If the license conditions for use of R-mix, or anything else, say that you need to own the XYZ (e.g., Producer) version of the host software to use it, then you should not necessarily *expect* to be able to use that feature if you do not upgrade to the corresponding new host version.

Is this a simple concept? Yes.
Is it a legal and common business practice? Yes
Is it a good customer relations model for business? No.

If I were the Cake King, I would ensure that all versions of all plugs would be usable by all versions of the host. It just makes sense to me that people would want to sometimes upgrade only to Studio, even if they've been a Producer user for years. I've been a Cakewalk "user" (with my recording partner at the time) since the Pro Audio days and have been an "owner" since Sonar 3. I have built quite a nice library of useful plugs by buying upgrading up through X2, Producer version each time. However, I readily admit that for a long time (for me at least) all the extra doo-dads that you get with Producer are bloat, but I have kept buying Producer for things like the Track Inspector, ProChannel, etc.

At this point I don't need the extras, and I've lost the use of plenty of good plugs fairly recently due to unsupportive practices (e.g. no DX support in 64-bit X1 and on). However, eventually I will upgrade to X3 Producer, because, while I don't necessarily agree with the practices, none of them have been a show stopper, however unpleasant at times. Also, I want to ensure that I have the flexibility to do anything the DAW allows as it develops. Buying Producer is the premium you pay for the greatest flexibility with the product.

In the end, Sonar is only a tool: one that I have not learned to use effectively or efficiently, but one that I can at least use to capture some musical ideas. Is it "the best?" Right now, for me, it is. I have no doubt that there are "better" DAWS out there that work better for other people for where they are in their spectra of DAW needs, but I don't have the time, money, or inclination, to compare all the DAWS out there.

Sonar will do, for now. And when I have the time and money, I will upgrade to X3 Producer.


-u

[Daan22]

[
You make it sound like Cakewalk stole the plugin(s) from customers. They didn't. They still own them, and can use them with their Sonar Producer version that they are included in.

It may sound like that to you, but it is a fact that they were bought fairly.

I haven't denied that.

Not being able to use them in the latest version, and having to still use Producer to access them seems convoluted and long winded to me...

We're going in circles here. Again, these plugins were never for use with the Studio version. That has always been a feature exclusive to the more expensive Producer version. So, it seems unreasonable to expect or demand this option for free in future versions of the same product. If it's there, that's great, if not, it was to be expected, and the company can not be blamed. If it's really an important feature, there is simply the option to upgrade to the Producer version. Or, again, use the version they bought it with.

I've explained why I think that way, and you can disagree with me, but don't tell me I'm accusing Cakewalk of stealing anything because that is not the case.

I agree, the customer got what he paid for, and Cakewalk delivered, and never took any functionality away.

I don't see why a simple workaround can't be made for people in that position

On one side, there's the customer,who usually wants to get as much(quality) as possible for as little money as possible, and there's the company that has to make money. There has to be a balance between the two, so I can understand certain policies and decisions.

Also you seem to be missing the point that it is already in their arsenal of plug ins, (they have X2 Producer, not X2 Studio) and that they don't WANT to upgrade to Producer X3 because they have enough plug ins already.

I'm not missing that point. Please read or understand my first post better, and see this one too.

[dredd i knight]

@Daan22 lets agree to disagree. I can't help but think having to keep old versions of software and bounce etc, is not good business sense. And it seems others also have that view. You don't, fair enough.

[Himhotep3]

Yeah I am aware of the workarounds - it's just inexplicable that there is a leading DAW that still can't record the audio output of plugins.

In Sonar x2 Studio you can do this if you read the help files. There it says you have to insert a soft synth, then, in the track, push the record button to arm the track, then push the general record (not again the record of the track that only allows it to arm the track, not to record the track for real...), and there you are! If no sound is produced, stop record, minimize Sonar x2, go to your system recording mixer (the small icon, first at left after the date/hour windows OS on the right side), and check the soundcard driver, or midi channel enabled, or if you have the LoopBe midi virtual plug, so Sonar can hear through it your soft synth. But remember to mute all other tracks but the one you want to record your stuff on! Once configured, it should works.

You know, I'm just a newbie with Sonar x2 Studio as I've upgrade past month from Cakewalk Music Creator 6 plain, but I've learned that Cakewalk doesn't care too much about manuals, but the stuff is there, so you only need to figure it out how to do it, and most times you can do it so easily, but most times you don't know how. So probably a mouse click, or activating something before starting another, may do the job...

But it's true that on the meantime on the learning curve, I've also installed the VSTHost free program in slave mode with the Legree VST plugin, that uses a great piano roll that can be configured as you please, and you can plug so many synths, mix them together and record it so easily without having to arm or disarm any track at all...

Hope it helped...

[trimph1]

And plugins from previous versions can be installed and used in later versions by simply doing a selective install of the older version, or simply leave the older version installed. For a new version Sonar installs the actual program files in a new directory while leaving all the shared plugins, midi data audio data etc etc exactly as they are (unless of course there are new plugs in the new version).

Sheesh on my PC I have 8.5, Sonar 1,2 AND 3 all installed and in Sonar 3 I can happliy call up any plugin from any previous version and use it.

Who could complain at that flexibility!!!

Simple.

Oh you'd be surprised around here.

To some, that level of flexibility is too confusing.

[beltrom]

Yeah I am aware of the workarounds - it's just inexplicable that there is a leading DAW that still can't record the audio output of plugins.

In Sonar x2 Studio you can do this if you read the help files. There it says you have to insert a soft synth, then, in the track, push the record button to arm the track, then push the general record (not again the record of the track that only allows it to arm the track, not to record the track for real...), and there you are!

With those instructions you should be recording midi to the soft synth track as far as I can tell? Not the audio output of the soft synth. Is there something I'm missing?

Note that if you split an instrument track in two (a midi track and an audio track) the audio track drops its arm button. Even if you route a synth audio output from an instrument track to a separate audio track that track drops the arm button.