Bricasti M7 Native Plugin

[poshook]

I would really like to have this one as a plugin. There are some threads on the web but no information about plans.
Is there any reverb plugin with the sound and feel similar to M7?

[whyterabbyt]

I would really like to have this one as a plugin. There are some threads on the web but no information about plans.
Is there any reverb plugin with the sound and feel similar to M7?

there wont ever be plans. the maker of the M7 is adamant that general-purpose CPUs cannot run the bricasti algorithms.

[poshook]

It is pretty strange because the main competitors in native form do not use as much CPU power (Lexicon, Exponential, Valhalla, UVI). I am curious what is that special on those algos

[Burillo]

i would imagine it's the same reasoning as with UAD stuff.

[kev2525]

The impulse responses are freely available in you have a convolution plugin: http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m7-i ... responses/

[meloco_go]

It is pretty strange because the main competitors in native form do not use as much CPU power (Lexicon, Exponential, Valhalla, UVI). I am curious what is that special on those algos

Until you have precise knowledge on algo details of Bricasti vs other reverbs you have to take what Casey said at face value.
IIRC what he said was the memory througput was limiting factor. It seems that Bricasti is a sort of mega-delay with a huge number of individual taps which may go for several seconds. Thus it requires a lot of very fast memory.

[Mudcat007]

I am having great success using the Bricasti IRs in a true stereo convolution set-up (REAverb in REAPER) with some modulation tagged on. If you've got a decent convolution plugin that works in true stereo with modulation you should have no problem getting excellent results.

[kmonkey]

I am having great success using the Bricasti IRs in a true stereo convolution set-up (REAverb in REAPER) with some modulation tagged on. If you've got a decent convolution plugin that works in true stereo with modulation you should have no problem getting excellent results.

Ummmm and how exactly are you getting modulation inside your IR tails? If you mean on some pseudo chorus thing before or after IR signal, then no my friend that is far far away from real reverb tail modulation and IT IS NOT how original M7 or any other reverb (for that matter) behave..

[whyterabbyt]

I am having great success using the Bricasti IRs in a true stereo convolution set-up (REAverb in REAPER) with some modulation tagged on. If you've got a decent convolution plugin that works in true stereo with modulation you should have no problem getting excellent results.

Ummmm and how exactly are you getting modulation inside your IR tails? If you mean on some pseudo chorus thing before or after IR signal, then no my friend that is far far away from real reverb tail modulation and IT IS NOT how original M7 or any other reverb (for that matter) behave..

It doesnt read like he was saying it had identical results, only that he was having 'great success', and thus whether it replicates the M7 exactly or not is moot, for him.

[Burillo]

last time i heard Bricasti reverbs had no modulation whatsoever. "real spaces don't modulate, so why should a reverb" kind of thing. i could be wrong though.

Until you have precise knowledge on algo details of Bricasti vs other reverbs you have to take what Casey said at face value.
IIRC what he said was the memory througput was limiting factor. It seems that Bricasti is a sort of mega-delay with a huge number of individual taps which may go for several seconds. Thus it requires a lot of very fast memory.

well, one doesn't have to know precise details to suggest that it may be hogwash. this was also being said about Lexicon algos, and yet they're now in plugin form (with imitations having been around for ages before that). memory bandwidth limitations? OK, whatever, make it non-realtime or with a huge latency - problem solved. people use linear phase EQ's, they'll get used to reverb having latency. i could be completely wrong on this, but i don't think even a custom built box is THAT much better than a modern PC with lots of RAM.

i suppose the reasons for keeping it in hardware is purely business-based (effort to port to a new platform vs. potential revenue from that platform, support overheads etc.).

[meloco_go]

well, one doesn't have to know precise details to suggest that it may be hogwash. this was also being said about Lexicon algos, and yet they're now in plugin form (with imitations having been around for ages before that). memory bandwidth limitations? OK, whatever, make it non-realtime or with a huge latency - problem solved. people use linear phase EQ's, they'll get used to reverb having latency. i could be completely wrong on this, but i don't think even a custom built box is THAT much better than a modern PC with lots of RAM.

i suppose the reasons for keeping it in hardware is purely business-based (effort to port to a new platform vs. potential revenue from that platform, support overheads etc.).

Well, it's your choice to think of Casey as liar or not. And I prefer latter. As for performance, you can optimize DSP much better than CPU. You have GPU's for a reason, it is a processor highly optimised for a task at hand. You don't call NVIDIA and AMD liars for making a separate GPU card, don't you?

[EvilDragon]

As for performance, you can optimize DSP much better than CPU.

That's a wrong way to say what you meant. The point of DSPs is having special registers which do specific calculations (for example, Fourier transform) in less CPU cycles than a general purpose Intel or AMD CPU. However, Intel has AAX vector extensions which enable much the same calculations to happen - and at a much greater speed any DSP runs on.

So yeah, I will say that Casey is full of it.

You have GPU's for a reason, it is a processor highly optimised for a task at hand. You don't call NVIDIA and AMD liars for making a separate GPU card, don't you?

Wrong counter-argument. GPUs are there because gaming industry "made them necessary". Computers were running just fine with non-3D accelerated graphics cards long before nVidia, ATi, Matrox, 3dfx, etc.

[Mudcat007]

I am having great success using the Bricasti IRs in a true stereo convolution set-up (REAverb in REAPER) with some modulation tagged on. If you've got a decent convolution plugin that works in true stereo with modulation you should have no problem getting excellent results.

Ummmm and how exactly are you getting modulation inside your IR tails? If you mean on some pseudo chorus thing before or after IR signal, then no my friend that is far far away from real reverb tail modulation and IT IS NOT how original M7 or any other reverb (for that matter) behave..

It doesnt read like he was saying it had identical results, only that he was having 'great success', and thus whether it replicates the M7 exactly or not is moot, for him.

Exactly. Thanks whyterabbyt!

[Aiynzahev]

I would really like to have this one as a plugin. There are some threads on the web but no information about plans.
Is there any reverb plugin with the sound and feel similar to M7?

I've not used the M7 but I have heard demos. Hmm I would honestly recommend you try B2. It's got a very dense yet sophisticated and musical sound.

There really isn't much else I can think of right now. AE Phoenix might also be worth considering, though it's not got the dense sound of M7 it's a very sophisticated sound.

Nothing like the M7 though, wow.

[valhallasound]

As for performance, you can optimize DSP much better than CPU.

That's a wrong way to say what you meant. The point of DSPs is having special registers which do specific calculations (for example, Fourier transform) in less CPU cycles than a general purpose Intel or AMD CPU. However, Intel has AAX vector extensions which enable much the same calculations to happen - and at a much greater speed any DSP runs on.

So yeah, I will say that Casey is full of it.

I programmed Blackfins for audio for several years at Analog Devices, including several reverb algorithms. My back of the envelope estimate is that the M7 is somewhat more powerful than a single core of any existing Intel processor. If the algorithm can't be divided into parallel threads (and many reverb algorithms can't), then it would be impossible to run this as a native plugin. Even if the algorithm could *barely* fit on a core, running that close to the max CPU of that core would result in stuttering in any real world situation.

The memory access speed of the M7 would also be difficult/impossible to reproduce on current Intel CPUs. Algorithms such as the Lexicon topologies tend to use around 1 to 2 seconds of delay memory, max. This will allow the memory to stay in the cache of modern CPUs. Casey has mentioned that the algorithm uses over 30 seconds of delay memory. This won't fit in the cache of modern CPUs, and would require a lot of swapping with the main memory, which is MUCH slower.

Blackfins also have hardware support for circular buffers, which is how delay lines are built. You can get faster delay lines on software reverbs w/o hardware circular buffer support by using bitwise tricks, but those hardware circular buffers allow for a HUGE number of delay taps to be calculated without breaking a sweat.

Over at Gearslutz, Casey has mentioned that he uses 32x16 bit multiplications where appropriate, as opposed to the 32x32 multiplications that are commonly used for audio. This suggests to me that the 32x16 bit multiplications are being used for delay taps, where a 16 bit coefficient would make no audible difference. It also suggests that Casey is working pretty close to the metal, as opposed to just running generic C code and letting the high power processors deal with the overhead.

Sean Costello