The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

[Ogopogo]

The original beta signup was a simple email address, no questionnaire, they've clearly skipped the idea of a public beta test.

Didn't they also say to say something about why you want to test it or something? I can't remember.

That line seems "suspect" to you??

Well I'm not accusing you of anything I couldn't think of a clearer word right then. What I mean is I thought it showed misunderstanding. Bitwig is not the technical tool, the beta process is.

yeah I think I'm going to stop discussing this with you.

Whatever, if you please.

[VitaminD]

Their latest tweet is fairly relevant here

https://twitter.com/Bitwig/status/385444433874804737

we're very sorry for you feeling let down! but the beta is not a demo phase or there to please people, it is a pure technical tool..

I think Maddox's tweet made more sense, the reply tweet is relevant but a change in phrase, the original beta signup wasn't for a technical tool and some people have actually received beta signups, whether this is a "technical tool" or not... it looks like the app is going to be released possibly at 1.0 and a lot of people who signed up for the coming soon beta test aren't going to see a beta or a "technical tool"...also it's not good if Bitwig is just a tech tool right now, it kinda needs to be near completion at this stage... for me personally this is disappointing but I'm not too bothered, if it isn't released this year I will stop checking on it and adopt a different platform... I just hope when it's finally released that Bitwig can be more transparent with updates, I want the software to be everything I've imagined it to be, but also it's important that Bitwig as a company deliver things in a timely fashion and are able to communicate with customers... I think that's been one of Ableton's biggest mistakes...

They stated such on their facebook pages months ago... no more beta participants added... everyone else (who signed up for it) will be able to trial it as the version 1.0 demo once they release (with everyone who didn't sign up for the beta).

Then they also stated they felt the biggest demanders of the beta are people who just want to play with it.. not really test.. which seems pretty obvious there would be a sizable chunk doing just that. But, even with them, you're bound to catch more bugs that way..

So, I think, that is what they mean by 'tech tool.' They are viewing their software as a tool and not a toy. And are claiming that most who signed for the beta to be in the category of wanting to 'play' with the new shiny 'toy.'


In any case, yeah, the thread title is not accurate anymore since there will be no more beta tester inclusions it seems.

edit: On second thought, I think Ogopogo is correct on their description of the beta phase as a technical tool.

[humanbeingbeing]

The original beta signup was a simple email address, no questionnaire, they've clearly skipped the idea of a public beta test.

Didn't they also say to say something about why you want to test it or something? I can't remember.

That line seems "suspect" to you??

Well I'm not accusing you of anything I couldn't think of a clearer word right then. What I mean is I thought it showed misunderstanding. Bitwig is not the technical tool, the beta process is.

yeah I think I'm going to stop discussing this with you.

Whatever, if you please.

Yes, it would be weird if you were accusing me of something, thank you for clarifying... I'm not going to argue over this terminology stuff, because it's super clear what the issue is, I'm not the first or last person to mention it....actually this particular forum is quite friendly about it overall, you go into other circles and there is all this talk about vaporware, and all these stupid comments like 'betawig' and numerous stupid variations... I don't like them, I've got every finger crossed for Bitwig and I can wait longer... but there is definitely an issue with this gap between beta signups and public software, whether you want to call it a technical thing, or beta or whatever, I think a lot of people expected something by now.... I was pretty positive it would hit in the summer, and I have to be honest, there was a point where the excitement starts diminishing, because even Ableton are catching up with 9.1 and time... all this being said, as I've already said, I'm super hopeful of Bitwig, I'm a huge advocate.

[ThomasHelzle]

I think there is a continuous basic misconception here about betatesting.

What everybody wants here (my impression) is to basically get an early demo version to see if BW is for him or not and what it is all about. That is totally fine as far as the users interests are concerned, but it may not be in the best interest of the company in question.

If you have a released version already it is much easier to go "open beta", especially if you are rather advanced in stability and functionality and mostly need final proof that it works on a wide range of systems. In that case you can see the beta as a kind of advance demo that may even help you sell the update.

On the other hand, if you have an unreleased product that may still go through drastic changes (if necessary) that may make earlier songs and presets unusable or that may require major reshuffling of the GUI or massive changes in functionality and where the docs aren't totally finished and complete yet, it is very hard to do that with too big a crowd.

Now I assume that everybody and his dog (erm, sorry, CAT that is of course) signed up for this beta, right?

And now imagine you are this handful of people and suddenly you have several thousand "betatesters" to deal with. How would you hope to communicate with all of them? How would you stay focused on your work? How would you filter out the noise? How would you prevent going through the same report of some issue over and over again? How would you deal with these guys who insist that this or that little thing is a total killer and they HAVE to fix this otherwise the sky will fall and they will use another DAW...

In this way: what this tweet meant was, that the BETATESTING is a technical tool ATM, not Bitwig itself!

Betatesting of this kind is a way to find bugs, both in code and in functionality and workflow. You try to gather a mixed crowd of testers that you on one hand can well communicate with, that have some expertise in this area or other and that are basically positive towards the product so that you don't waste time in endless discussions or even aggressive ones.
These people need to be willing to go through each and every beta and provide the most constructive feedback possible so that the product can grow.

This is also the part that most people never see. Most "Open Betas" have gone through such a phase with inner circle testers already and are therefore relatively polished.

So: Yes Bitwig is long in the making but don't you think that the programmers are just as eager to get it out than everybody else, if not more so?

But this is a major project. They tackle some stuff that Live to this day doesn't, they deliver on 3 platforms at once, something hardly any DAW can boast no matter what version number. There are some concepts in there that I personally find amazing, like the handling of 32 and 64 Bit plugins in a manner that a plugin crash can be easily resolved by just restarting that one plugin without BW crashing. They are a small but dedicated team, have clever ideas and yes, their realization takes more time than expected. So what?

Why are people so eager to construct all this evil intentions and how all they ever did is wrong from that?
They just do what they do, but why would anybody get so angry or insulting over it?

If it wouldn't have been announced yet people would just go on with their lives, wouldn't they. And one can do just that as well even though it IS announced. Give yourself a break, use whatever you have or get what you need. Everything else is mostly self delusion.

Hm - epic rant once more - sorry, but seemed necessary.

Cheers,

Tom

EDIT: wow, this topic exploded while I was still typing. Ogopogo explained it perfectly and much faster than I did.
Still, I don't get this being personally offended because someone wasn't picked for beta.
Can't you imagine they may have been surprised by the amount of people signing up themselves?

[Ogopogo]

Yeah the waiting is getting hard. I'm going to be buying either it or Live and there's no way I'm wasting money on Live while Bitwig is on the horizon so I hope it'll be out soon.

[humanbeingbeing]

Their latest tweet is fairly relevant here

https://twitter.com/Bitwig/status/385444433874804737

we're very sorry for you feeling let down! but the beta is not a demo phase or there to please people, it is a pure technical tool..

I think Maddox's tweet made more sense, the reply tweet is relevant but a change in phrase, the original beta signup wasn't for a technical tool and some people have actually received beta signups, whether this is a "technical tool" or not... it looks like the app is going to be released possibly at 1.0 and a lot of people who signed up for the coming soon beta test aren't going to see a beta or a "technical tool"...also it's not good if Bitwig is just a tech tool right now, it kinda needs to be near completion at this stage... for me personally this is disappointing but I'm not too bothered, if it isn't released this year I will stop checking on it and adopt a different platform... I just hope when it's finally released that Bitwig can be more transparent with updates, I want the software to be everything I've imagined it to be, but also it's important that Bitwig as a company deliver things in a timely fashion and are able to communicate with customers... I think that's been one of Ableton's biggest mistakes...

They stated such on their facebook pages months ago... no more beta participants added... everyone else (who signed up for it) will be able to trial it as the version 1.0 demo once they release (with everyone who didn't sign up for the beta).

Then they also stated they felt the biggest demanders of the beta are people who just want to play with it.. not really test.. which seems pretty obvious there would be a sizable chunk doing just that. But, even with them, you're bound to catch more bugs that way..

So, I think, that is what they mean by 'tech tool.' They are viewing their software as a tool and not a toy. And are claiming that most who signed for the beta to be in the category of wanting to 'play' with the new shiny 'toy.'


In any case, yeah, the thread title is not accurate anymore since there will be no more beta tester inclusions it seems.

edit: On second thought, I think Ogopogo is correct on their description of the beta phase as a technical tool.

No more beta testers is pretty much what I wrote... I don't really need to hear this stuff about people just wanting to play with it... I've been a professional musician, and I have no problem with people wanting to play with music software... music tools like Ableton are used by a lot of people just for fun, despite maybe the idea that everyone wants to be a pro... if I pay the license fee, I may just open the app to play with it, not everything has to be serious... if they wanted only serious testers they could've got them without a public signup, they could have got them and did it without any public announcement (like NI)... if I had received a beta signup (or whatever you want to call it) for Bitwig, I would've tested it hard and I'm sure a lot of other people would have too, there was no opportunity to.... I'm kinda tired/bored of arguing about it because it's already been said, somehow, people like me have got it into their heads an application was coming soon, a long time ago, we could argue over who is to blame for that assumption but the assumption was made and I'm not the only one who made it.

[marioisaac]

Did somebody kidnapped the cats? it's been a few pages since I don't see them...

[humanbeingbeing]

Tom, I appreciate you long message... your arguments about beta software are all valid, I've read the same arguments for many different pieces of software, in the music software world familiar statements are made every couple of years for different products.... there are some issues with what you've said tho, you seem to be of the opinion that it takes how long it will take, they've got limited resources, of course programmers want to get things done also... I agree with all this, but it doesn't change the fact that we're dealing with software that people use for their projects, at this stage in my career I don't really take my music projects too seriously, but I know a lot of people who do, and I used to... what equipment I use, and the investments I make in time and money all have to be added up, so as much I understand the situation with Bitwig, and I can't change the situation with Bitwig, I still have to react to the situation and deal with it accordingly... so for example, if the update cycle for Bitwig is too long, that could be a problem, especially if they choose to leave me out of the loop with regards testing... you said it yourself user interests are concerned... I can only think about my own, but I have every sympathy for the company. I want to get some idea if this is a realistic platform to work with in the future and have some realistic expectation for when that will be, that's not dramatic, I mean this is not asking for much at all... I've given Bitwig every benefit of the doubt, for me it's until 2014, then I stop checking on it.

[humanbeingbeing]

Yeah the waiting is getting hard. I'm going to be buying either it or Live and there's no way I'm wasting money on Live while Bitwig is on the horizon so I hope it'll be out soon.

I'm in a similar boat... tho I won't consider Live again until they add automation compensation... and to me the 9 update was so poor I've lost confidence in that developer.. that's a big deal because it's not like there is an alternative app I can use...Bitwig is the only alternative on the horizon... and I suspect Ableton will probably have compensation maybe for 9.2... so anyway, the waiting for me is really stifling.

[ThomasHelzle]

Tom, I appreciate you long message... your arguments about beta software are all valid, I've read the same arguments for many different pieces of software, in the music software world familiar statements are made every couple of years for different products.... there are some issues with what you've said tho, you seem to be of the opinion that it takes how long it will take, they've got limited resources, of course programmers want to get things done also... I agree with all this, but it doesn't change the fact that we're dealing with software that people use for their projects, at this stage in my career I don't really take my music projects too seriously, but I know a lot of people who do, and I used to... what equipment I use, and the investments I make in time and money all have to be added up, so as much I understand the situation with Bitwig, and I can't change the situation with Bitwig, I still have to react to the situation and deal with it accordingly... so for example, if the update cycle for Bitwig is too long, that could be a problem, especially if they choose to leave me out of the loop with regards testing... you said it yourself user interests are concerned... I can only think about my own, but I have every sympathy for the company. I want to get some idea if this is a realistic platform to work with in the future and have some realistic expectation for when that will be, that's not dramatic, I mean this is not asking for much at all... I've given Bitwig every benefit of the doubt, for me it's until 2014, then I stop checking on it.

Well, these statements are made repeatedly because they are true.
And no, THIS product people DON'T use for their projects yet, so why getting worked up about it?
Why not simple check on the product when it's released? What do you gain from "stopping to check on it in 2014"?

The last update cycle of Live took 4 years and look what they had to show for it.
Before it was usually shorter because they didn't implement M4L and didn't have such a problematic release as 8, which they had to fix first. You don't know from a pre-release how the future will look - once a software is released some thing actually become easier...

Most Software doesn't have ANY open betas or don't at all talk about the future, so you can't plan at all. With Studio One or Logic you will know on the day of release about the release. And I guess this over-anxiety of users or would be users is one reason for this.

Whatever, I'm not a BW spokesperson and don't try to defend them, just try to bring some sense into the discussion.

YMMV

Cheers,

Tom

[humanbeingbeing]

EDIT: wow, this topic exploded while I was still typing. Ogopogo explained it perfectly and much faster than I did.
Still, I don't get this being personally offended because someone wasn't picked for beta.
Can't you imagine they may have been surprised by the amount of people signing up themselves?

I won't comment on other people but I'm not personally offended about the beta signup... I haven't seen anyone on here offended by it, it's not something I would get offended by... for me it's very simple, and I'm surprised you've written this because you said it yourself in your opening paragraphs... people want to see what this app is about, we've seen images, we've seen clips, we want to use it, I want to have to some realistic idea when it will be available, this is not some dramatic thing, this is the same expectation that gets put on any product. You've said here, 'can't you imagine', I can imagine loads of people signing up, we're already past that stage, they didn't give signups to everyone, they've made that decision already and presumably, alphas, betas, technical tools what you want to call them have been underway for some time now, this question for me is the old question... I'm only interested in the basics, as in when will we have the opportunity to see it for ourselves? Now, it may be popular to frame that like some irrational demand, but it's really not, they're trying to sell us a product, I want to buy it, I want to know whether it really will be a replacement for Live, which I need really badly... I'm not going to jump up and down demanding it, but I still want it.

[humanbeingbeing]

Tom, I appreciate you long message... your arguments about beta software are all valid, I've read the same arguments for many different pieces of software, in the music software world familiar statements are made every couple of years for different products.... there are some issues with what you've said tho, you seem to be of the opinion that it takes how long it will take, they've got limited resources, of course programmers want to get things done also... I agree with all this, but it doesn't change the fact that we're dealing with software that people use for their projects, at this stage in my career I don't really take my music projects too seriously, but I know a lot of people who do, and I used to... what equipment I use, and the investments I make in time and money all have to be added up, so as much I understand the situation with Bitwig, and I can't change the situation with Bitwig, I still have to react to the situation and deal with it accordingly... so for example, if the update cycle for Bitwig is too long, that could be a problem, especially if they choose to leave me out of the loop with regards testing... you said it yourself user interests are concerned... I can only think about my own, but I have every sympathy for the company. I want to get some idea if this is a realistic platform to work with in the future and have some realistic expectation for when that will be, that's not dramatic, I mean this is not asking for much at all... I've given Bitwig every benefit of the doubt, for me it's until 2014, then I stop checking on it.

Well, these statements are made repeatedly because they are true.
And no, THIS product people DON'T use for their projects yet, so why getting worked up about it?
Why not simple check on the product when it's released? What do you gain from "stopping to check on it in 2014"?

The last update cycle of Live took 4 years and look what they had to show for it.
Before it was usually shorter because they didn't implement M4L and didn't have such a problematic release as 8, which they had to fix first. You don't know from a pre-release how the future will look - once a software is released some thing actually become easier...

Most Software doesn't have ANY open betas or don't at all talk about the future, so you can't plan at all. With Studio One or Logic you will know on the day of release about the release. And I guess this over-anxiety of users or would be users is one reason for this.

Whatever, I'm not a BW spokesperson and don't try to defend them, just try to bring some sense into the discussion.

YMMV

Cheers,

Tom

I'm sorry I don't know where you're getting your ideas from... I can see this becoming an argument just for the sake of argument... this line "bring some sense into the discussion" doesn't make sense, the discussion was sensible before hand. Nobody is getting worked up over anything. I personally have no "over-anxiety"... I don't see what you're seeing here.

You've asked me some questions here about why I am doing this, and what do I have to gain... again, these might seem like sensible questions to you and I get it... but you don't understand where I'm coming from, I've stated it in posts to other people:

"
I'm in a similar boat... tho I won't consider Live again until they add automation compensation... and to me the 9 update was so poor I've lost confidence in that developer.. that's a big deal because it's not like there is an alternative app I can use...Bitwig is the only alternative on the horizon... and I suspect Ableton will probably have compensation maybe for 9.2... so anyway, the waiting for me is really stifling."

Simple as that, no need to look into any further. Maybe my message board emotions aren't coming through as clearly as they could be. I'm pretty much neutral about this... I maybe cared more a year ago... now I'm just playing the waiting game... waiting for automation compensation - that's just me personally.

[pdxindy]

Still, I don't get this being personally offended because someone wasn't picked for beta.

There are lots of spoiled entitled brats who cannot see anything but their own immediate and trivial wants.

From the way people describe it, you would think the folks at Bitwig are kidnapping and torturing people or something.

[pdxindy]

Whatever, I'm not a BW spokesperson and don't try to defend them, just try to bring some sense into the discussion.

YMMV

Cheers,

Tom

A fine effort, but a waste of time... Better just talk about the beta and let the people who feel they have been so terribly victimized by Bitwig to their rants.

[humanbeingbeing]

Still, I don't get this being personally offended because someone wasn't picked for beta.

There are lots of spoiled entitled brats who cannot see anything but their own immediate and trivial wants.

From the way people describe it, you would think the folks at Bitwig are kidnapping and torturing people or something.

You're are trying to establish a false narrative here that there are loads of people 'offended' about not being picked for a beta program. I don't see it... I especially don't see this perspective suggesting Bitwig are evil doers... I take exception to a bias perspective from actual beta testers, you shouldn't be commenting on people who haven't experienced the software themselves.... and more importantly trying to suggest there is something wrong with people wanting Bitwig that was announced almost 2 years ago, hyped ever since, it's especially arrogant to suggest other peoples wants are more or less trivial than yours... pdxindy, you have no grounds to use the word 'immediate' (2 years) and 'trivial'. I've seen a lot of continued patience from people, calling people spoiled entitled brats is more negative than anything else, at this stage people are welcome to talk about Bitwig delays, especially if it's pertinent to their work or license purchases they're planning to make - which seems to be case of most users here.

I personally have some time left for Bitwig, because there are no alternatives as yet, but for me if Ableton get automation compensation in a future update, Bitwig looks less appealing, I'm hoping it'll still be a killer app. I am not at all ashamed of my gear lust for Bitwig, it's been number 1 on my wish list for 2 years, that doesn't make me a 'spoiled entitled brat', I'd say the same was true for a lot of music software users.

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