Bricasti M7 Native Plugin

[valhallasound]

Limitations lead to creativity. Much different than the infinite blank page that greets us when we open up Xcode or VisualStudio.

Sean Costello

Dude, not to get you guys off topic, but this is why I've really been looking into rack effects. That and DAW stability and CPU overhead.

Great posts, post on!

Like me you've got music on the mind on the weekend instead of "fun" "normal" people have. haha!... unless you're getting ready to go out and I'm just a loser

I've got kids. "Going out" is pretty rare for me nowadays.

I'm not that much into rack effects. I've got some, for my job, but I prefer stomp boxes. That being said, some rack effects are more inspiring than others.

I find the Lexicons REALLY hard to navigate. My PCM70 has one of the worst UIs I have ever used (pressing the UP number key causes the numbers to go DOWN). The Lexicon 300 has a WORSE UI. Lexicon sure knew how to push people towards the LARC! Which is, admittedly, a great interface for a reverb.

The Eventide H3000, on the other hand, has a great interface. Same dial + buttons as my Lex 300, but much better UI design. Navigating through presets is lightning quick, and diving into the presets is easy as well.

Sean Costello

[Aiynzahev]

Limitations lead to creativity. Much different than the infinite blank page that greets us when we open up Xcode or VisualStudio.

Sean Costello

Dude, not to get you guys off topic, but this is why I've really been looking into rack effects. That and DAW stability and CPU overhead.

Great posts, post on!

Like me you've got music on the mind on the weekend instead of "fun" "normal" people have. haha!... unless you're getting ready to go out and I'm just a loser

I've got kids. "Going out" is pretty rare for me nowadays.

I'm not that much into rack effects. I've got some, for my job, but I prefer stomp boxes. That being said, some rack effects are more inspiring than others.

I find the Lexicons REALLY hard to navigate. My PCM70 has one of the worst UIs I have ever used (pressing the UP number key causes the numbers to go DOWN). The Lexicon 300 has a WORSE UI. Lexicon sure knew how to push people towards the LARC! Which is, admittedly, a great interface for a reverb.

The Eventide H3000, on the other hand, has a great interface. Same dial + buttons as my Lex 300, but much better UI design. Navigating through presets is lightning quick, and diving into the presets is easy as well.

Sean Costello

Yep, kids here too When I do go out it's for a nice meal with the wife (I've not a regret in the world)

Stompboxes huh, hmmm like this?



Buying stompboxes is something I would probably get addicted to.

[Warp69]

What I said were simply two things:

1) I personally believe custom DSP solutions are pretty much obsolete... all of them. Not any one in particular

I respectfully disagree. I believe custom DSP and fixed function hardware is far from obsolete. Solutions based on DSP or fixed function can be way faster and more efficient per die area than any general purpose CPU. Intel plans for Larrabee had to change into Xeon Phi because Intel couldn't compete with fixed function. Intel Skylake (2015) will include smaller specialized cores along side the larger cores.

Just look at the recent announcement from AMD - AMD TrueAudio which incooperate a specialized multi-core (8?) audio DSP (Tensilica) into their graphic cards. Nvidia will follow shortly.

And lastly - the very best reverbs would never have been released without DSP's.

[Andrew Souter]

I respectfully disagree. I believe custom DSP and fixed function hardware is far from obsolete. Solutions based on DSP or fixed function can be way faster and more efficient per die area than any general purpose CPU.

Sure, they *can* be, but by the time they are designed, and manufactured, they usually end up being made obsolete by the latest generation of general purpose CPUs. If some new audio-optimized DSP chip is designed today, by the time it ships in real products Intel will likely be at a 5nm process.

5-10 years ago, we thought "hey it would be cool to do audio DSP on PS3/Cell." Now that is a cool processor! Well, I must say I am glad we did not spend years trying to do it...

Cell/GPU/DSP/FPGA/whatever is always interesting in concept, but it is like playing Russian Roulette IMHO. Except here, your chances are reversed, here it is like a 1/6 chance instead of 5/6 chance of surviving... In fact it is likely much worse odds than that...

Intel plans for Larrabee had to change into Xeon Phi because Intel couldn't compete with fixed function. Intel Skylake (2015) will include smaller specialized cores along side the larger cores.

It will be interesting to see where Intel goes from here, yes.

Just look at the recent announcement from AMD - AMD TrueAudio which incooperate a specialized multi-core (8?) audio DSP (Tensilica) into their graphic cards. Nvidia will follow shortly.

Interesting. Maybe...

And lastly - the very best reverbs would never have been released without DSP's.

I'm talking about the preset. I agree, that in the past, they were the only solution.

[Andrew Souter]

I would also say that "obsolete" isn't necessarily a bad thing. I was using a 224XL on Monday that was almost 30 years old. The Bricasti will still be running 20 years from now. Our plugins WON'T, unless we are actively updating them. 1/4" and XLR inputs are ancient standards, that are far more robust and stable than plugin "standards" that are constantly being changed by the keepers of those standards.

There is a slight logical fallacy in this argument. The argument assumes that your computer/OS/Host/plugin-standards etc. are going to change and be a moving target, which will inevitably break compatibility.

By contrast it is assumed that XYZ hardware device does not change its system or make updates that break compatibility.

Obviously this is not an unreasonable assumption to make, but nothing forces people to update their computers/OS/Hosts.

30 years from now, if nothing changed in your computer, as it is assumed to be the case for the hardware device, nothing would break either...

I guess this is semantics though...

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

There is a slight logical fallacy in this argument. The argument assumes that your computer/OS/Host/plugin-standards etc. are going to change and be a moving target, which will inevitably break compatibility.

By contrast it is assumed that XYZ hardware device does not change its system or make updates that break compatibility.

Obviously this is not an unreasonable assumption to make, but nothing forces people to update their computers/OS/Hosts.

30 years from now, if nothing changed in your computer, as it is assumed to be the case for the hardware device, nothing would break either...

I guess this is semantics though...

Semantics indeed. I doubt much of the hardware in a computer is even designed to last more than five years. At some point, you'll need a new video card, or hard drive, etc. At the rate standards have been changing, a 10 year old peripheral would be a hard thing to replace (though probably not impossible).

In addition, while nothing forces anyone to update their PC, I think the vast majority of the PC market had been on a 2-5 year upgrade cycle for years. For general purpose computing, I think that's done (look at PC sales for proof). In fact, the desktop PC itself may be mostly done as a result (my iPad handles my web browsing needs well-enough and I don't need Excel or Word outside of the office). I don't think it's any major prediction to say that desktop PC's will become more and more specialty items for professional work (be it audio, video, or general office computing), and that's it.

Anyway, as developers, Sean and Warp69 have a responsibility to keep up with market changes. They could say to their customers "just never upgrade your PC and my plugin will still work," but that's something they can't do for obvious reasons. Hence the constant need to update. Something about specialized hardware does seem nice in that regard, but I'd rather spend $50 on a Valhalla plugin over a $2,000 Lexi box any day of the week.

[Warp69]

Sure, they *can* be, but by the time they are designed, and manufactured, they usually end up being made obsolete by the latest generation of general purpose CPUs. If some new audio-optimized DSP chip is designed today, by the time it ships in real products Intel will likely be at a 5nm process.

Obsolete by which metric? Price? Performance/power? Performance/area? If your only metric is performance, then you're right, but this is NOT the only metric. Even Intel have seen the new trend of prioritizing performance/power and price instead of just raw performance. In the future the desktop market can not drive the R&D regarding increasing performance - either Intel needs to concentrate on different segments, Atom and Quark, or increase the price of their Core CPU's. Both scenarios could benefit fixed function/DSP.

I'm talking about the preset. I agree, that in the past, they were the only solution.

I agree that we have a lot of processing power now, but I have yet to see any real advancement in realtime reverberation/environment simulation in the native (x86) space. The best algorithms are still only available in DSP form. This will change, but it haven't yet, even though we have way more power available. I'm aware that this is obviously a completely different discussion.

[jancivil]

Ummmm and how exactly are you getting modulation inside your IR tails? If you mean on some pseudo chorus thing before or after IR signal, then no my friend that is far far away from real reverb tail modulation and IT IS NOT how original M7 or any other reverb (for that matter) behave..

Maybe not but some good sounding reverbs could probably be created by layering several instances of an impulse, each modulated independently. Is there currently an impulse plugin that allows impulses to be used in this way?

http://www.viennamirpro.com/#!product_info

Highly specialized impulses of line arrays in 60° steps in six horizontal directions as well as upwards and downwards.
Up to 40 sectors per stage for instrument placement, with interpolation between sectors for seamless transitions.
Up to 5,000 individually recorded impulse responses for each room, depending on the size of the stage and the number of microphone positions.
Instrument-specific algorithms according to individual directional frequency profiles available for Vienna Instruments; generalized Directivity Profiles for 3rd-party instruments.
Four-channel Ambisonics recordings for output in various stereo and surround formats (up to 8 output channels).
Rooms recorded from up to four carefully selected positions - from the conductor's podium as well as from the audience perspective.

[antithesist]

Warp issues gauntlet.

I love it when the warpster surfaces. Bad thread title, by the way. I almost crapped in my pants the first time I read it.

Me too. There should at least be a question mark there.

Good thread. I always appreciate when Sean drops by.

Andrew, too. Carnes was next door. Yes, a question mark would be good. Imagine Tony Belmont's popcorn munching smiley here.

[Uncle E]

Dude, not to get you guys off topic, but this is why I've really been looking into rack effects. That and DAW stability and CPU overhead.

The old Yamaha and Roland reverbs sound excellent and are a steal these days. Imagine layering two R7's, that could sound excellent.

[valhallasound]

Warp issues gauntlet.

I love it when the warpster surfaces. Bad thread title, by the way. I almost crapped in my pants the first time I read it.

Me too. There should at least be a question mark there.

Good thread. I always appreciate when Sean drops by.

Andrew, too. Carnes was next door.

Michael was next door? AND HE DIDN'T STOP BY TO SAY HI????? My feelings are hurt now.

[Aiynzahev]

Dude, not to get you guys off topic, but this is why I've really been looking into rack effects. That and DAW stability and CPU overhead.

The old Yamaha and Roland reverbs sound excellent and are a steal these days. Imagine layering two R7's, that could sound excellent.

I recently for the UR28M and though the reverb that ships with it is nothing I'd use very often I did notice it had a particular alluring character. Got me interested in looking up the older Yamaha reverbs just for another character to call upon.

[Andrew Souter]

Obsolete by which metric? Price? Performance/power? Performance/area? If your only metric is performance, then you're right, but this is NOT the only metric.

Primarily performance, yes.

IDK I will think about it more later.. right now, I am trying to figure out if I want to carry a heavy tent 19 miles, or risk trying to sleep in a Lean-To that might a) be full of people and/or b) infected with Hantavirus from mice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adirondack_lean-to


...but rain in the high 30s makes the Lean-To seem appealing...

...or maybe a day hike is best, avoiding the whole question...

choices, choices...

[Moonlight]

I agree that we have a lot of processing power now, but I have yet to see any real advancement in realtime reverberation/environment simulation in the native (x86) space. The best algorithms are still only available in DSP form. This will change, but it haven't yet, even though we have way more power available. I'm aware that this is obviously a completely different discussion.

How do you know that DSP reverbs have better algo? By ear, or you calculating this mathematically? IMO, the best reverb of all times is B2. It's the only reverb, which can sound like real space without ugly and annoying resonances. All other algo reverbs including Bricasti sound ugly comparing to B2 and they all produce really ugly resonances.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I agree that we have a lot of processing power now, but I have yet to see any real advancement in realtime reverberation/environment simulation in the native (x86) space. The best algorithms are still only available in DSP form. This will change, but it haven't yet, even though we have way more power available. I'm aware that this is obviously a completely different discussion.

How do you know that DSP reverbs have better algo? By ear, or you calculating this mathematically? IMO, the best reverb of all times is B2. It's the only reverb, which can sound like real space without ugly and annoying resonances. All other algo reverbs including Bricasti sound ugly comparing to B2 and they all produce really ugly resonances.

There are literally 3 people I know of on this planet who I would never dare contradict when it comes to reverb. They are (in no particular order):

1. Sean Costello (Valhalla Room, Vintage Verb, Shimmer)
2. Michael Carnes (Lexicon, Exponential Audio Phoenix, R2)
3. Martin Lind (Relab LX480, CSR, X-Verb)

Each of these three have released among the best native algorithmic reverbs (which is what we're talking about here). Warp69 is the third person I listed there. I would think twice before contradicting him on anything relating to DSP reverbs.