Bricasti M7 Native Plugin

[Uncle E]

Warp69 is Martin Lind? I think I beta tested Scope plugins for him years ago.

And yes, not someone to dismiss.

[Moonlight]

There are literally 3 people I know of on this planet who I would never dare contradict when it comes to reverb. They are (in no particular order):

1. Sean Costello (Valhalla Room, Vintage Verb, Shimmer)
2. Michael Carnes (Lexicon, Exponential Audio Phoenix, R2)
3. Martin Lind (Relab LX480, CSR, X-Verb)

Each of these three have released among the best native algorithmic reverbs (which is what we're talking about here). Warp69 is the third person I listed there. I would think twice before contradicting him on anything relating to DSP reverbs.

Then ask them to mix your tracks. B2 is in its own class way above other algorithmic reverbs. And I don't care about who is who.

[kmonkey]

IMO, the best reverb of all times is B2. It's the only reverb, which can sound like real space without ugly and annoying resonances. All other algo reverbs including Bricasti sound ugly comparing to B2 and they all produce really ugly resonances.

I disagree (with no disrespect). 2c reverbs are all totally artifical to my ear(which OF COURSE does not make them obsolete in every situation at all). They to some extent however do remind me of VSS3 algorithm which is considered to be really good but somewhat giving you "cold" space simulation (often needed in film production), thus it's even worse then VSS3. In every way these (2c) are most artificial i know.

You know, making reverb "clear" of resonance doesn't mean that it will give you better real space simulation, or will make decent reverb developer of you. There are many many other things which need to be finely tuned.

Regarding M7 and annoying resonance I am guessing that you actually never heard M7 in real life. You wouldn't say that M7 produce annoying resonance. Totally not. I still can't grasp are you joking maybe in that part?

Post some example will you? Actually post some example of default preset pack from Phoenix reverb, Relab or Lexicon will you? Valhalla also can give fantastic impression of space without resonance.

Obviously one can make a lot of reverbs to resonate in annoying way if you remove modulation from tail, decrease tap delays and so on but that's not a point here and i guess that same one doesn't know how to use reverb properly(then).

I want you to post examples where M7 or leading software reverbs "resonante in annoying way" under "real space" simulation category, where B2 does not? If you have M7 it should not be a problem. Or if you like post some 3rd party example where you hear that.

[kmonkey]

The only rational explanation for custom hardware is that it can not be pirated. i.e. it is a business decision, not an engineering one...

Jesus Christ

Tell me you are joking and that you are not finding this as only rational explanation for hardware reverb.

How can you say that? Maybe i am not understand you correctly and in that case i apologize but in every other way i will ask:

What about musicians and their needs?

Do you think that people using rack reverbs on stage or in studio (without need for computer, additional AD/DA, latency, stability etc.etc.etc.) are not rational?

There are many reasons (other then sound character) why hardware FX unit exist. Not only because of anti piracy. For Christ sake these existed far before software reverb piracy..I am really shocked with your statement (from a musician point of view).

[Moonlight]

I disagree (with no disrespect). 2c reverbs are all totally artifical to my ear(which OF COURSE does not make them obsolete in every situation at all). They to some extent however do remind me of VSS3 algorithm which is considered to be really good but somewhat giving you "cold" space simulation (often needed in film production), thus it's even worse then VSS3. In every way these (2c) are most artificial i know.

You know, making reverb "clear" of resonance doesn't mean that it will give you better real space simulation, or will make decent reverb developer of you. There are many many other things which need to be finely tuned.

Regarding M7 and annoying resonance I am guessing that you actually never heard M7 in real life. You wouldn't say that M7 have annoying resonance. Totally not. I still can't grasp are you joking maybe in that part?

Post some example will you? Actually post some example of default preset pack from Phoenix reverb, Relab or Lexicon will you? Valhalla also can give fantastic impression of space without resonance.

Obviously one can make a lot of reverbs to resonate in annoying way if you remove modulation from tail, decrease tap delays and so on but that's not a point here and i guess that same one doesn't know how to use reverb properly(then).

I want you to post examples where M7 or leading software reverbs "resonante in annoying way" under "real space" simulation category, where B2 does not? If you have M7 it should not be a problem. Or if you like post some 3rd party example where you hear that.

I sold my M7 right after I got LexNative (which also sound very bad comparing to B2). But you can check Casey samples on GS. They all have resonances I'm talking about. Anyway, M7 is one of the best reverbs, but B2 is better. If you have M7 let's compare it to B2. I'll provide dry source and B2 preset. And you'll make something that sound as good (not exactly same, just in same class) as my preset with M7.

Also how can you say that all 2caudio reverbs sound artificial? Firstly, they all very different. And I suppose you never heard real space if you writing this. I recording classical stuff in different theaters and do a lot of rock recording in different studios. I can instantly recognize reverb that sound real. And by now it's only B2.

[Moonlight]

Jesus Christ

Tell me you are joking and that you are not finding this as only rational explanation for hardware reverb.

How can you say that? Maybe i am not understand you correctly and in that case i apologize but in every other way i will ask:

What about musicians and their needs?

Do you think that people using rack reverbs on stage or in studio (without need for computer, additional AD/DA, latency, stability etc.etc.etc.) are not rational?

There are many reasons (other then sound character) why hardware FX unit exist. Not only because of anti piracy. For Christ sake these existed far before software reverb piracy..I am really shocked with your statement (from a musician point of view).

I think you both right. You're right for stage using. Andrew's right for studio using. The thing is on stage the actual quality doesn't really matter. Once I was working as live engineer for very big and famous band. And one of highend reverb units died during soundcheck. We replaced it with really cheap Lexicon and the actual difference was very small. I really don't see any point in highend reverbs for stage work. And for studio using there is lot of native reverbs, that sound better than any DSP solutions.

[Kindred]

Nice - some of the brightest minds in reverb are posting in this fascinating thread - thank you!

My only comment would be that I tend to box reverbs into simplistic categories -

spacey/unnatural/weird/modulating - Eventide, B2, Valhalla
Metallic/80s - CSR, EOS,
Naturalistic - Bricasti, Lexicon, Exponential

A lot of this is subjective and open to debate however. This is just my simple heuristic for when I am making a track and need a particular reverb.

As much as B2 is my current favourite (as it suits my sound - just like my H8000), I wouldn't have described it as 'natural' (particularly in the sense that some people would consider 'unnatural' to be a pejorative term - which I don't).

Bricasti sounds more 'natural' than anything I have heard (I should add that this is based on audio samples, not real world use). It sounds like you have struck a note in a large hall. That's why I think it tends to suit rock, folk, instrumental etc, rather than tech-house. Curious to hear if anyone is using the M7 to make house music.

[kmonkey]

I sold my M7 right after I got LexNative (which also sound very bad comparing to B2). But you can check Casey samples on GS. They all have resonances I'm talking about. Anyway, M7 is one of the best reverbs, but B2 is better. If you have M7 let's compare it to B2. I'll provide dry source and B2 preset. And you'll make something that sound as good (not exactly same, just in same class) as my preset with M7.

Also how can you say that all 2caudio reverbs sound artificial? Firstly, they all very different. And I suppose you never heard real space if you writing this. I recording classical stuff in different theaters and do a lot of rock recording in different studios. I can instantly recognize reverb that sound real. And by now it's only B2.

I said it is my opinion (based on my experience not a pink elephant point) and you can not convince me to change my opinion with saying that you had top notch reverbs but you sold them, and tell me that i need to find some links on 3rd forum. Sorry.

Taste for reverb can vary a lot i will give you that however i am finding it pretty suspicious that somehow you as a recording engineer sold what is considered to be modern holy grail for reverb (M7) which is used all over the world in studios of every category, then you sold Lexicon algorithms which have been built on legacy of experience and been used...what...again..several decades in modern studios all over the world, and you are claiming that all other reverbs are bad, but one (which seems really weird to me and again it's my opinion) is supposedly best of the best. And to claim this you are finding some kind of annoying resonance which actually isn't discovered by anyone else other then you (since you don't want to post examples and really...i never heard of anyone complaining how lex or m7 is producing annoying resonance)

Regarding your "And I suppose you never heard real space if you writing this." statement, i think i see where it goes, i am not finding it creative or constructive. However i'll give you a kick back before i mute you.

Yeah i am stoned plain deaf. Never had listening session in my room. Thanks. I'll just mute you. I'll be deaf even more after that.

You already donated yourself a lot of credits by writing super nonsense regarding M7 and Lex things. I guess you are the type of person which is you know... chosen ONE and people just wait to discover you and your experience with only one ultimate real reverb which is quite opposite in what literally rest of the world is (successfully) doing..

Good luck with that man..

p.s. if you want to troll me do it in PM so we don't invade this thread anymore. I guess you can not accept other people opinion without making ridicule of them. PM me if you need something.

[valhallasound]

[Beatworld]

x 100

[toothnclaw]

Well, anyway, no matter which algo reverb is -subjectively- better or worse, none of them can hold a candle to a real space. Or a bunch of real spaces. So that's it for all your algos' "realism".

[No_Use]

And I suppose you never heard real space if you writing this.

That means one must live in an anechoic chamber no ?

[Kindred]

Well, anyway, no matter which algo reverb is -subjectively- better or worse, none of them can hold a candle to a real space. Or a bunch of real spaces. So that's it for all your algos' "realism".

this may be correct technically, however even accepting this, what is the implication for a finished piece of music? (real space v algo). Put another way, what percentage of people listening to your music could discern the minutiae of various means of adding reverb to sounds?

I just spent hours yesterday automating reverb tails and modulating delays and have no idea if people would even notice...

[toothnclaw]

Well, anyway, no matter which algo reverb is -subjectively- better or worse, none of them can hold a candle to a real space. Or a bunch of real spaces. So that's it for all your algos' "realism".

this may be correct technically, however even accepting this, what is the implication for a finished piece of music? (real space v algo). Put another way, what percentage of people listening to your music could discern the minutiae of various means of adding reverb to sounds?

I just spent hours yesterday automating reverb tails and modulating delays and have no idea if people would even notice...

The pros were talking about realism, so... I thought I should give some sense of perspective. And in some cases realism is important, e.g. in movies.

[xh3rv]

n some cases realism is important, e.g. in movies.

IMO there's some kind of maxim that realism in art doesn't always mean the most faithful reproduction of reality. Michelangelo's David is in ways strikingly realistic, but some body parts are scaled a bit strangely.

On native versus hardware, I do think the application-specific comparison of reverbs is interesting and worthwhile but the wide variety of applications on native certainly can't be forgotten in the big picture. Is there a form of non-PC architecture with a compelling variety of application for audio DSP, realized or just theoretically?