"Logic Pro X will eventually be sandboxed"

[Phase47]

The point is, old and crusty standards are useful, in that they are STANDARDS. A standard that doesn't change is a good standard, if you want to have any sort of longevity for those things created to be compatible with that standard. If the standard isn't perfect, whatever. Work around it. Or use a different standard, but don't break the existing standard.

Truth. The MIDI cables I bought in 1984 still work. Thirty years later.

[Tronam]

I can only partially agree with this. A standard that never changes can also hamper innovation, especially in the technology sector. There needs to be some kind of balance so that the standards can evolve. I can't imagine anyone saying they'd be happy if we were all still using MIDI and hadn't migrated to high speed connectivity like USB/FireWire/Thunderbolt. Would you really want to go back to floppy disks and serial ports?

[Tronam]

I've used Macs for 15 years, but I pretty much hate the new Apple. It is really annoying to be forced to use the Apple/Mac store.

If eventually, there are nothing but corporate enclaves that force users to 'join', I'll go back to using hardware and analog... but in the meanwhile, we are in the golden age of small developers for audio... Both plug-ins and analog modular. I so appreciate that I can go give Sean my money directly. I would hate to be forced to give Apple 30% (and of course once they have enough control, that 30 will go up)

Apple is not forcing anyone to use the Mac App Store and I still doubt it will ever happen. For lots of large desktop applications it's not even practical or feasible, especially when you factor in all the shared technology that goes into the various copy protection schemes and cross platform support. As desktop Mac/PC sales continue to dwindle quarter after quarter and the average consumer migrates to tablets for the bulk of their general purpose computing, the Mac will probably primarily exist for developers and content creators. I think it'll always be more open ended.

[pdxindy]

I've used Macs for 15 years, but I pretty much hate the new Apple. It is really annoying to be forced to use the Apple/Mac store.

If eventually, there are nothing but corporate enclaves that force users to 'join', I'll go back to using hardware and analog... but in the meanwhile, we are in the golden age of small developers for audio... Both plug-ins and analog modular. I so appreciate that I can go give Sean my money directly. I would hate to be forced to give Apple 30% (and of course once they have enough control, that 30 will go up)

Apple is not forcing anyone to use the Mac App Store and I still doubt it will ever happen. For lots of large desktop applications it's not even practical or feasible, especially when you factor in all the shared technology that goes into the various copy protection schemes and cross platform support. As desktop Mac/PC sales continue to dwindle quarter after quarter and the average consumer migrates to tablets for the bulk of their general purpose computing, the Mac will probably primarily exist for developers and content creators. I think it'll always be more open ended.

OS updates are through the Mac App Store... so yeah, they are forcing you to use it... or never update

[Angus_FX]

Would you really want to go back to floppy disks and serial ports?

If the serial port in question ran at a few Gbit/s would you mind?

Want a VST2.x connection with 100x the bandwidth of the original? Just run it on an i7 instead of the Pentium-MMX it was designed on

The other important difference here is that serial, firewire etc. are interconnects - defining how you connect one piece of gear to another - not specs/standards defining the internal structure/architecture of a piece of hardware or software. As long as you provide a 5-pin MIDI port on your synth, it can run analogue circuitry, full-digital, even some electro-mechanical Heath Robinson contraption internally, and the standard doesn't mind.

Sandboxing and VST3 both meddle with the internals, albeit in very different ways. Instead of just letting one bit of equipment talk to another, they attempt to dictate its internal layout. As to AAX & its PACE digital signature, that's a shameless commercial power-play on Avid's part, but it's not like they're really trying that hard to disguise it as anything else. "Protecting IP assets"... whatever.

[Tronam]

OS updates are through the Mac App Store... so yeah, they are forcing you to use it... or never update

For all their various in-house software products it makes perfect sense and eliminates the need for global boxed content distribution. Would you prefer the way it was before having to walk into an Apple dealer and pay $120 for a DVD? Forcing 3rd party developers to *only* use the Mac App Store is what we're talking about in this thread and I'm not convinced this will ever happen on the desktop. Developers and content creators need more freedom and open-endedness than the average computer user.

[pdxindy]

OS updates are through the Mac App Store... so yeah, they are forcing you to use it... or never update

For all their various in-house software products it makes perfect sense and eliminates the need for global boxed content distribution. Would you prefer the way it was before having to walk into an Apple dealer and pay $120 for a DVD? Forcing 3rd party developers to *only* use the Mac App Store is what we're talking about in this thread and I'm not convinced this will ever happen on the desktop. Developers and content creators need more freedom and open-endedness than the average computer user.

I used to just be able to update the OS via software update. Now if I want to be able to look at the notes of the update before doing so, I get sent to the Mac App Store and I have to log into and remember a password which I have no interest to have or use and which I usually forget.

What used to be easy and in my control, now isn't.

Bit by bit the corporate monoliths are taking over the internet by channeling mass numbers of people into specific portals.

Maybe they will not succeed, but you can be sure that each megacorp salivates at the idea of getting their cut of every transaction. It is naive to think they are not attempting that.

[Tronam]

Sandboxing and VST3 both meddle with the internals, albeit in very different ways. Instead of just letting one bit of equipment talk to another, they attempt to dictate its internal layout. As to AAX & its PACE digital signature, that's a shameless commercial power-play on Avid's part, but it's not like they're really trying that hard to disguise it as anything else. "Protecting IP assets"... whatever.

Isn't VST3 just another flavor of power play on Yamaha/Steinberg's part? They want to be the exclusive company to steer that ship. If VST2 had been opened up for the community to maintain and improve as an industry neutral standard like MIDI, maybe VST3 would be unnecessary now.

[Tronam]

I used to just be able to update the OS via software update. Now if I want to be able to look at the notes of the update before doing so, I get sent to the Mac App Store and I have to log into and remember a password which I have no interest to have or use and which I usually forget.

What used to be easy and in my control, now isn't.

Bit by bit the corporate monoliths are taking over the internet by channeling mass numbers of people into specific portals.

Maybe they will not succeed, but you can be sure that each megacorp salivates at the idea of getting their cut of every transaction. It is naive to think they are not attempting that.

You also get much lower prices, no wasted paper&plastic media, no draconian copy protection, can install onto 5 different computers without having to rebuy it or worry about dongles or serial numbers and can download again in the future whenever you want. Sorry man. Installing Logic Pro X was about as easy as it gets these days for a major software product and centralizing their media empire around a single login means way fewer passwords to remember. Welcome to the 21st century. The cloud isn't going away and it's not just the corporate monoliths embracing it. Most everyone else is too. And hey, it kinda scares me too, but I'm not oblivious to the immediate benefits it can provide either.

[pdxindy]

I used to just be able to update the OS via software update. Now if I want to be able to look at the notes of the update before doing so, I get sent to the Mac App Store and I have to log into and remember a password which I have no interest to have or use and which I usually forget.

What used to be easy and in my control, now isn't.

Bit by bit the corporate monoliths are taking over the internet by channeling mass numbers of people into specific portals.

Maybe they will not succeed, but you can be sure that each megacorp salivates at the idea of getting their cut of every transaction. It is naive to think they are not attempting that.

You also get much lower prices, no wasted paper&plastic media, no draconian copy protection, can install onto 5 different computers without having to rebuy it or worry about dongles or serial numbers and can download again in the future whenever you want. Sorry man. Installing Logic Pro X was about as easy as it gets these days for a major software product and centralizing their media empire around a single login means way fewer passwords to remember. Welcome to the 21st century. The cloud isn't going away and it's not just the corporate monoliths embracing it. Most everyone else is too. And hey, it kinda scares me too, but I'm not oblivious to the immediate benefits it can provide either.

First you say Apple is not forcing me to use the Mac App Store, then when I demonstrate how they are, you try to convince me I should just like it...

And that is how corporate structures dominate. They give some good deal to get everyone hooked, then start squeezing when there is no other easy choice. And you do not know that you can download in the future whenever you want. That is the propaganda you choose to believe, but you do not have control of that and it can be changed at any time down the road.

Zebra was super easy to install, has no draconian copy protection, I can install it on any of my own computers and I can download it again in the future whenever I want and I trust Urs a helluva lot more than Apple (whose success has turned them into an evil corporation trying to dictate to everyone). I am grateful for the small developers like U-he, FXPansion, Valhalla, Cockos, etc. They provide great tools and ethics I can live with.

[Tronam]

You can take it that way if you wish. The point throughout this entire thread has pretty consistently been about whether or not Apple would force 3rd party developers to sell AU plugins only through the Mac App Store. Releasing *their* software on their own online store is a different matter and makes complete sense. Do you buy U-He plugins from anywhere but Urs' own website? Of course not. Every company sells their wares through their own storefront. Apple just doesn't sell their software in physical stores anymore. No one said you have to like it. Whether this is "evil" or not is open to interpretation I guess, but my hyperbole can only extend so far.

[pdxindy]

You can take it that way if you wish. The point throughout this entire thread has pretty consistently been about whether or not Apple would force 3rd party developers to sell AU plugins only through the Mac App Store. Releasing *their* software on their own online store is a different matter and makes complete sense. Do you buy U-He plugins from anywhere but Urs' own website? Of course not. Every company sells their wares through their own storefront. Apple just doesn't sell their software in physical stores anymore. No one said you have to like it. Whether this is "evil" or not is open to interpretation I guess, but my hyperbole can only extend so far.

I would say it is a near certainty that Apple *wants* to make developers sell through them. I also doubt they will succeed in the near term. I don't think they have enough leverage. However, they are not the only company pushing in that general direction.

And I did not say Apple is evil because they sell their own software through their online store (I'd prefer if you didn't try to manipulate my words that way). Of course they should sell their software. However it is annoying when they make a particular task harder just to push me onto their store again.

They are 'evil' because of their efforts to control users. Like fighting hard to stop people from jailbreaking their iDevices. They tried to patent a process where they could delete users data for an infraction. WTF!? I could list various other examples. They have become too domineering... an Apple Big Brother!

[chk071]

They are 'evil' because of their efforts to control users. Like fighting hard to stop people from jailbreaking their iDevices.

Not sure about it atm, what is the law situation with jailbreak? Does Apple forbid it explicitely in their terms of usage, and is it legal for them to do so? Only thing i know is that you mess up your warranty if you do so, as on any Android device when you break those to use a custom rom.

[Tronam]

You know what's really evil? Corporations like Monsanto bankrupting poor rural farmers over genetically engineered seed that blew onto their land.

I don't like companies restricting what their users can and cannot do either. I'm a geek who grew up through the personal computer revolution and worked in IT for years. I'd like everything to be wide open and wild, like how the Internet used to be in its infancy, but at the same time I can also see the flip side of walled gardens like Apple with iOS. My technophobic mother is the perfect example of this. The iPhone is the first "computer" that has ever truly made intuitive sense to her. She took to it immediately, downloads and installs apps, sends/receives messages, plays games, browses the web, watches videos, uses custom playlists for music on a stereo at her office etc... Apple essentially made the perfect computer for the baby boomer generation, which is no small feat. Even if I don't like the restrictions that go along with it, I can't honestly say they're bad products because of how well they work for so many people. Fortunately they're not the only game in town. If I don't like it, I can just run Windows or Linux and use Android. No one is forcing me one way or the other.

[Angus_FX]

Isn't VST3 just another flavor of power play on Yamaha/Steinberg's part? They want to be the exclusive company to steer that ship. If VST2 had been opened up for the community to maintain and improve as an industry neutral standard like MIDI, maybe VST3 would be unnecessary now.

Perhaps, but it's distinct from AAX in that it's a technical power play as well as a business one. Avid's play is pure business, wrapped in a thin layer of IP protection. They're actually pretty hands-off about architectural matters.. yes, they'd like plug-ins to be distributable, and they'd like them to take advantage of the HDX DSP chips, but they don't force the issue with any of that. Apart from the PACE crap, which can die a thousand painful deaths, AAX is pretty good in that respect.

My impression with VST3 is that they want to define how plug-ins are architected as well as how they interconnect.. and while I can absolutely see the merits of an SDK which guides n00b developers in a sensible direction with that (as Steinberg have in fact done since VST 1.0), that kind of architectural enforcement doesn't belong at the interconnect (API) level.