Cakewalk Sonar X3

[Jace-BeOS]

Find something you love to work with and make some music.

This should be stickied.

Then wait for them to f**k up the part you like best in the next release.

This should be stickied.

Actually, no need. My next door grocery store does this to me on a continual basis :-p

[Jace-BeOS]

Find something you love to work with and make some music.

This should be stickied.

Then wait for them to f**k up the part you like best in the next release.

Sez the 'monkey blows' Fruitybase user..

lol, I don't know about the Fruity part, but the C7 mixer does indeed blow monkey nuts and it is excellent in C6.

Every product goes through bad major release cycles. What, were you guys asleep for Cubase SX, or C4? PT has had some rough patches. You kind of just have to hang on until they accidently release something solid. But, that usually means something bad is on the drawing board

Wait, so the first and only version I bought into Cubase was a particularly bad version? This is like where I get jobs. Every place I got a job had a reputation for being a great place to work ... which was speedily burned away during my tenure until either chased out or laid off.

I don't know why I stayed with Cakewalk so long. Maybe because it was my first? Must admit: Sonar's menus aren't as cluttered as Cubase's (well, C4).

EDIT: I changed topics and the context looks like I claimed to work for Cakewalk. That's not the case and I really didn't see how badly my post transitioned!

[Jace-BeOS]

I tried to resist writing this post here, but it's 4 A.M., and Sonar X3C has decimated my project. Pro-Channel EQ parameters have randomly switched around with no involvement on my part, at random times pro-channel modules mute their entire track - and that's just the intermittent glitches. Add on top the ridiculous automation writing, unpredictable clips selection in the track view, and a blame-the-user development culture, and you get one putrid piece of garbage.

Don't get me wrong, Sonar looks great on paper! It's richly featured, the multi-out synth support is very nicely designed, and the Pro-Channel strip promises a world of top-grade sound and convenience. It's only when you do a hardcore project that exercises all these and other features, that the demons emerge by the hundred.

The press will get around to Sonar soon enough, and I have no doubt that the reviewers, who will at best spend ten minutes glancing through all the billboard features, will give high marks. It's the users who'll be up at 4 am wondering why Sonar mangled their projects (not to mention parting with $150+) who'll get the real story.

Ah, the famous 'No, I won't contact support!' guy. Can't find anybody to wipe your bottom for you?

Ah, the famous lousy attitude of blame the user. Exactly as he stated in his post. Can't stand anybody demonstrating problems with a product you like?

[Jace-BeOS]

I tried to resist writing this post here, but it's 4 A.M., and Sonar X3C has decimated my project. Pro-Channel EQ parameters have randomly switched around with no involvement on my part, at random times pro-channel modules mute their entire track - and that's just the intermittent glitches. Add on top the ridiculous automation writing, unpredictable clips selection in the track view, and a blame-the-user development culture, and you get one putrid piece of garbage.

Don't get me wrong, Sonar looks great on paper! It's richly featured, the multi-out synth support is very nicely designed, and the Pro-Channel strip promises a world of top-grade sound and convenience. It's only when you do a hardcore project that exercises all these and other features, that the demons emerge by the hundred.

The press will get around to Sonar soon enough, and I have no doubt that the reviewers, who will at best spend ten minutes glancing through all the billboard features, will give high marks. It's the users who'll be up at 4 am wondering why Sonar mangled their projects (not to mention parting with $150+) who'll get the real story.

Ah, the famous 'No, I won't contact support!' guy. Can't find anybody to wipe your bottom for you?

And he's just joined a Sonar bashing team in the Studio One forum. I wonder why he rushed to buy X3 and didn't wait till the demo comes out when X1/X2 have been known as an unstable, buggy daw for relatively many users (X1c/d and X2a worked fine on my system, with a number of minor bugs).

Maybe because he felt forced into an upgrade in the hopes that it would resolve some of his critical problems? This is a very common issue that developers and marketing people actually rely on to sell upgrades. But let us keep blaming the users...

[Jace-BeOS]

History.

I don't understand. My question is why do you still care about Sonar when you've already found a satisfactory DAW to move on with?

I still use Sonar for some tasks and I have a long history with it.

Strange.  It must really irk you to use a product that annoys you to no end (Sonar) - and to have forked out for alternate product which doesn't fully meet your needs (Cubase).


It's more than obvious to most here that your expectations are in the wee minority - when the world around you is fairly satisfied, you need to question your beliefs.




 

Being well adjusted to a sick system is no measure of sane beliefs.

I'm in the same position. I have abandoned Sonar for new work, but I have a lot of projects and plugins trapped in Sonar/Windows, so I'm still forced to use both to port those projects elsewhere. This makes the current Sonar news and perception relevant to me.

And that's the thing. Perception. It may be a frustration to those who have positive opinions of Sonar and Cakewalk, and even more frustrating to Cakewalk employees, but there is a perception of Sonar as buggy and Cakewalk as not being responsible that was created by Cakewalk's own product and behavior. It matters. Disregarding it won't help anyone. Mocking users like us also does not help anyone, but I'm sure it bolsters some egos here and there.

Yes, this thread is about X3... But X3 has many predecessors that form a track record. That record matters in considering X3. It is unreasonable to demand that people just ignore any such legacy. The only thing that will undo it is to consistently behave opposite the legacy. If X5 rolls around and the users on this forum confirm that Cakewalk has consistently improved and demonstrated better treatment of users in comparison to X2 and earlier, then wonderful. I'd love to see it. That could only be good for everyone. Till then... the critical commentary and the doubt has been earned.

Sick as compared to what? 

You bring up perception, and that's a good place to start. You forget that the perception you describe is your perception. Of course, there are other who share your perception, but context is everything. Your perception is a minority one and it is important to take that into consideration; however, noting the point does not diminish your right to express an opinion - it just provides proper perspective. This also applies to your perception of a 'track record' as well - I haven't had any major problems with Sonar since X1.

So, go ahead, complain. But expect rebuttal if straying from fact into hyperbole.


 

I don't disagree with you. But I would caution you to not assume hyperbole when someone has problems that you do not have. Also, there truly is a culture of blaming the users. For this reason, those with true problems are under-represented and bullied into silence. People like me tend to seem like loudmouths because we dare to speak up and are a minority for doing so. Minorities often turn out to be under-represented, and that keeps them minority.

[SuperG]

I tried to resist writing this post here, but it's 4 A.M., and Sonar X3C has decimated my project. Pro-Channel EQ parameters have randomly switched around with no involvement on my part, at random times pro-channel modules mute their entire track - and that's just the intermittent glitches. Add on top the ridiculous automation writing, unpredictable clips selection in the track view, and a blame-the-user development culture, and you get one putrid piece of garbage.

Don't get me wrong, Sonar looks great on paper! It's richly featured, the multi-out synth support is very nicely designed, and the Pro-Channel strip promises a world of top-grade sound and convenience. It's only when you do a hardcore project that exercises all these and other features, that the demons emerge by the hundred.

The press will get around to Sonar soon enough, and I have no doubt that the reviewers, who will at best spend ten minutes glancing through all the billboard features, will give high marks. It's the users who'll be up at 4 am wondering why Sonar mangled their projects (not to mention parting with $150+) who'll get the real story.

Ah, the famous 'No, I won't contact support!' guy. Can't find anybody to wipe your bottom for you?

Ah, the famous lousy attitude of blame the user. Exactly as he stated in his post. Can't stand anybody demonstrating problems with a product you like?

Baloney!

How do you handle a who user reports an alleged bug, is told by the bug reporting system to contact tech support - because they feel they can help him, who then subsequently makes such a rant? How is that in anyway but self-defeating behavior on the part of that individual?

I don't know or care if simply noting that someone who refuses offered help qualifies as 'blaming the user or not, I'm not a - I do know that it is a sure fire way to alienate potential helpers.

[SuperG]

I don't understand. My question is why do you still care about Sonar when you've already found a satisfactory DAW to move on with?

I still use Sonar for some tasks and I have a long history with it.

Strange.  It must really irk you to use a product that annoys you to no end (Sonar) - and to have forked out for alternate product which doesn't fully meet your needs (Cubase).


It's more than obvious to most here that your expectations are in the wee minority - when the world around you is fairly satisfied, you need to question your beliefs.





 

Being well adjusted to a sick system is no measure of sane beliefs.

I'm in the same position. I have abandoned Sonar for new work, but I have a lot of projects and plugins trapped in Sonar/Windows, so I'm still forced to use both to port those projects elsewhere. This makes the current Sonar news and perception relevant to me.

And that's the thing. Perception. It may be a frustration to those who have positive opinions of Sonar and Cakewalk, and even more frustrating to Cakewalk employees, but there is a perception of Sonar as buggy and Cakewalk as not being responsible that was created by Cakewalk's own product and behavior. It matters. Disregarding it won't help anyone. Mocking users like us also does not help anyone, but I'm sure it bolsters some egos here and there.

Yes, this thread is about X3... But X3 has many predecessors that form a track record. That record matters in considering X3. It is unreasonable to demand that people just ignore any such legacy. The only thing that will undo it is to consistently behave opposite the legacy. If X5 rolls around and the users on this forum confirm that Cakewalk has consistently improved and demonstrated better treatment of users in comparison to X2 and earlier, then wonderful. I'd love to see it. That could only be good for everyone. Till then... the critical commentary and the doubt has been earned.

Sick as compared to what? 

You bring up perception, and that's a good place to start. You forget that the perception you describe is your perception. Of course, there are other who share your perception, but context is everything. Your perception is a minority one and it is important to take that into consideration; however, noting the point does not diminish your right to express an opinion - it just provides proper perspective. This also applies to your perception of a 'track record' as well - I haven't had any major problems with Sonar since X1.

So, go ahead, complain. But expect rebuttal if straying from fact into hyperbole.



 

I don't disagree with you. But I would caution you to not assume hyperbole when someone has problems that you do not have. Also, there truly is a culture of blaming the users. For this reason, those with true problems are under-represented and bullied into silence. People like me tend to seem like loudmouths because we dare to speak up and are a minority for doing so. Minorities often turn out to be under-represented, and that keeps them minority.

I find that most of the so-called disgruntled do tend toward hyperbole and rhetorical theatrics. That's not to say they aren't experiencing problems, nor does it indicate whether the problem is the software in question or of their own making, but it does confuse any effort to help said individual.

The no-I-wont-contact-support guy is case in point and is typical. Whatever his issue was, his rather arrogant and self-important rant detracted from his ability to get help. He argued rather forcefully for a couple of pages, before the folly of refusing offered help began to sink in. It's quite understandable that he might feel put-upon, but then he was the author of his own opprobrium. Quite rightly.

[vintagevibe]

I find that most of the so-called disgruntled do tend toward hyperbole and rhetorical theatrics. That's not to say they aren't experiencing problems, nor does it indicate whether the problem is the software in question or of their own making, but it does confuse any effort to help said individual.

No different from all the people who don't have problems assuming that anyone who complains is either a troll or is the cause of their own problems. That is what the Cakewalk forum culture has turned in to and you see it in this thread as well.

[lfm]

The no-I-wont-contact-support guy is case in point and is typical. Whatever his issue was, his rather arrogant and self-important rant detracted from his ability to get help. He argued rather forcefully for a couple of pages, before the folly of refusing offered help began to sink in. It's quite understandable that he might feel put-upon, but then he was the author of his own opprobrium. Quite rightly.

Havn't really read what this guy wrote, but it could be he had the same experience with Cakewalk support that I have had. In 2010 with Sonar 8.5 I now gave them a chance with X3 - same old Cakewalk. 2010 responsetimes were decent, about a week, but now with special intervention it took only a month - to get a no sense reply. Support agent just made things up it being a documentation error - and forgot all about what I was trying to do. Very evasive I must say.

In this case it was about midi out usage on synths - and in particular Dimension Pro in my sample project I sent them. Dimension has been been shipped with Cakewalk products like Project5 for 10 years(and fully bought since 2005 or so) - and still their support did not know the midi out was fake - and nothing on midi in was echoed thru. It was just reporting having a midi out.

But this support agent made up stories about how help text for using midi out was from DX era only of Cakewalk products and was to be corrected.

The real answer was that Dimension does not echo stuff through so nothing comes further no matter how you route it - obviously. This is as sad as it gets to have no knowledge on their own products. People have reported issues though - doing more than one midi out routing - so there are more to this topic, I'm sure.

In 2010 it was a BSOD on W7 evaluating firewire interfaces. The support agent had no idea what this was about - but still was determined that he should handle it and eventually look into it. It does not get any more showstopper-level than BSOD as soon as you activate an input from soundcard - you cannot do anything, really. I had to be really rude to this guy to let it over to somebody else - and a really smart lady and had relevant questions and suggestions from then on.

Any software will have bugs - but what differentiate successful vendors from failing ones are if having decent dialog with users to solve issues that exist.

It's really hard to have topmost level employes on every chair - but you really have to educate them enough to leave things over to colleges when being topics out of their league.

Not having support agent sitting like Popes and not seeing a topic is beyond their realm of knowledge - and pass on to higher level support, or something. No, they sit there and block any further progress on the subject - at best giving evasive replies that just stalls the solution.

I uninstalled X3, and just keep Sonar 8.5 to be able to move projects to other daws. I really liked X3, nice piece of software - but not being able to solve even such simple issues as I had - and withing a decent time like a week - Cakewalk is a no go company for me. Support is the weakest link in the chain, I think, so the chains breaks.

For me writing songs and making decent demos of these are becoming real serious for me - and I look for vendors that pass the test to be a reliable companion for tools that I use. I aim to have an income of this in maybe 3-5 years at least. I will have a couple of daws that I know good enough - not to be all in the hands of one vendor - but still.

Anyway thanks to AROSSA that made this pain shorter and getting me through to support at all. And a tip would be - I would gladly pay for an annual subscription for priority support of some kind - where you know you are well taken care of and go passed this useless first level support. Same price level as Waves WUP is just fine.

[flugel45]

The no-I-wont-contact-support guy is case in point and is typical. Whatever his issue was, his rather arrogant and self-important rant detracted from his ability to get help. He argued rather forcefully for a couple of pages, before the folly of refusing offered help began to sink in. It's quite understandable that he might feel put-upon, but then he was the author of his own opprobrium. Quite rightly.

Havn't really read what this guy wrote, but it could be he had the same experience with Cakewalk support that I have had....

Same experience indeed.... You didn't wait for the demo to be released before buying a DAW that you are now angry about.

Amazing how people can't seem to stop themselves from doing this... then feel they are entirely in the right when they come on here and rant about how they got screwed over!

[SuperG]

I find that most of the so-called disgruntled do tend toward hyperbole and rhetorical theatrics. That's not to say they aren't experiencing problems, nor does it indicate whether the problem is the software in question or of their own making, but it does confuse any effort to help said individual.

No different from all the people who don't have problems assuming that anyone who complains is either a troll or is the cause of their own problems. That is what the Cakewalk forum culture has turned in to and you see it in this thread as well.

You did read my post, no?

There dude refused help from tech support - then had the gall to rant about why he refused it. That is, in fact, ones own cause.

There are trolls, and there are people who completely blow things out of proportion. This thread started with the trolls. Naturally, they are completely oblivious as to how they act toward others, and are incapable of seeing themselves in others shoes.

It's just too bad for the overweening, self-important that they feel that they cannot trash the place without push back.

[vintagevibe]

I find that most of the so-called disgruntled do tend toward hyperbole and rhetorical theatrics. That's not to say they aren't experiencing problems, nor does it indicate whether the problem is the software in question or of their own making, but it does confuse any effort to help said individual.

Ah, the famous 'No, I won't contact support!' guy. Can't find anybody to wipe your bottom for you?

You did read my post, no?

There dude refused help from tech support - then had the gall to rant about why he refused it. That is, in fact, ones own cause.

There are trolls, and there are people who completely blow things out of proportion. This thread started with the trolls. Naturally, they are completely oblivious as to how they act toward others, and are incapable of seeing themselves in others shoes.

It's just too bad for the overweening, self-important that they feel that they cannot trash the place without push back.

I read your post. I'm just making the point that Fanboys and Trolls are equally annoying and prone to hyperbole. IMO your post above "completely blows things out of proportion" and is worse than the one that made you so angry because on top of anger and hyperbole you add personal attacks.

[Jace-BeOS]

The no-I-wont-contact-support guy is case in point and is typical. Whatever his issue was, his rather arrogant and self-important rant detracted from his ability to get help. He argued rather forcefully for a couple of pages, before the folly of refusing offered help began to sink in. It's quite understandable that he might feel put-upon, but then he was the author of his own opprobrium. Quite rightly.

Havn't really read what this guy wrote, but it could be he had the same experience with Cakewalk support that I have had....

Same experience indeed.... You didn't wait for the demo to be released before buying a DAW that you are now angry about.

Amazing how people can't seem to stop themselves from doing this... then feel they are entirely in the right when they come on here and rant about how they got screwed over!

Blame the user again. Don't be an early adopter. Let everyone else not following that advise be the testers (and if no one was "stupid" and bought early, those who wait would still be early adopters). Don't upgrade till the (crippled or time limited?) demo comes out, often months later, while support and PR is telling customers "all that is fixed in the new version".

Because we're not supposed to expect software to work. We're expected to assume it will be broken on release. And almost no one has a problem with that, except for when you announce that it's broken and the people not using the broken parts get up in arms about smear campaigns. Then the assumption is "it's just you, dude" or "it's your own fault, somehow".

[flugel45]

Blame the user again. Don't be an early adopter. Let everyone else not following that advise be the testers (and if no one was "stupid" and bought early, those who wait would still be early adopters). Don't upgrade till the (crippled or time limited?) demo comes out, often months later, while support and PR is telling customers "all that is fixed in the new version".

Because we're not supposed to expect software to work. We're expected to assume it will be broken on release. And almost no one has a problem with that, except for when you announce that it's broken and the people not using the broken parts get up in arms about smear campaigns. Then the assumption is "it's just you, dude" or "it's your own fault, somehow".

Oh, please. By your view, the user bears no responsibility.

Anyone who's used complex software on a PC knows there are thousands of possible ways a PC can be put together, hence, thousands of ways it can conflict with any software.

Add to that: other software running on the same system and you have countless possible recipes for problems to occur. It's not just possible, it's inevitable.

Knowing this - and unless you live under a rock, you should - no DAW is guaranteed to work on every system on the planet.

So, what's the solution? Easy -- try the software demo. It's so obvious it's ridiculous to argue with such a simple point of logic.

The X3 demo hasn't even been released yet. More to the point -- having read your novelistic rants in this thread, it's obvious you don't even own X3.

Your problem is with X2. Or X1. Or Cakewalk. Or all of the above.

So, in that context, why don't you stop trying to make every point in this thread about "Blaming the user"?

Because no one is... (If you were actually talking about X3).

[SuperG]

I find that most of the so-called disgruntled do tend toward hyperbole and rhetorical theatrics. That's not to say they aren't experiencing problems, nor does it indicate whether the problem is the software in question or of their own making, but it does confuse any effort to help said individual.

Ah, the famous 'No, I won't contact support!' guy. Can't find anybody to wipe your bottom for you?

You did read my post, no?

There dude refused help from tech support - then had the gall to rant about why he refused it. That is, in fact, ones own cause.

There are trolls, and there are people who completely blow things out of proportion. This thread started with the trolls. Naturally, they are completely oblivious as to how they act toward others, and are incapable of seeing themselves in others shoes.

It's just too bad for the overweening, self-important that they feel that they cannot trash the place without push back.

I read your post. I'm just making the point that Fanboys and Trolls are equally annoying and prone to hyperbole. IMO your post above "completely blows things out of proportion" and is worse than the one that made you so angry because on top of anger and hyperbole you add personal attacks.

I am not angry as you appear to assume. I think it's quite educational to point out with a real-life example of the exact kind of behavior that I'm describing. I'm not sure how you got to out-of-proportion, since I didn't embellish that story in anyway. My last statement about overween et al, can be considered 'opinion' - my summation of that incident, but I would bet most would characterize it as such.


The way it stands, many at the CW forums have noted the change these days, and describe it as a breath of fresh air. If that kind of fresh air disgusts you, so be it.