The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

[tooneba]

I feel there is something major missing in this discussion:

Live is a DAW for live use. Logic, Cubase etc. are mainly targeted at studio use.

Now BWS is much closer to Live than to those other DAWs and clearly optimized for live use.

In the studio you will use comping and lanes, on stage it's unlikely.
There you may prefer a looper which in the studio is of less use.

Notation on stage? Hm, maybe as a replacement for displaying sheet music but otherwise not really.

In the studio it doesn't matter much if you drop in an effect plugin while you playback and get audio dropouts or clicks etc., on stage that would be bad and preventing it requires a completely different kind of optimization and priorities.

In some DAWs you can't even save your project while playback is running without audible clicks - in Live and BWS you can.

In the studio it makes sense to not render/run devices that are disabled to save CPU. On stage it's important that you can enable a device seamlessly. So an effect has to run even when disabled, otherwise you would get unpredictable results for instance from a delay (either it would play back old data from a preserved buffer or would only start when you enable it so nothing may be heard for a while).

On stage you need a very clear layout, preferably one-screen-optimized, usable even on a laptop. In the studio you may have multiple monitors and may not mind going through endless menus and options or overlapping windows and the like.

I could go on, but I hope you get the drift.

So if you thought that Bitwig Studio would be the one DAW to bind them all - ahem - replace them all, sure, you can be disappointed if you want, but that is hardly Bitwigs fault, since from day one they showed a feature list that made this rather clear IMO. Heck, most discussions initially were about Live suing them for similarity or how their feature list looked like a most wanted for Live.

You can also be disappointed that your Lamborghini doesn't have a shovel where that is pretty standard for excavators.
Both are cars with wheels in a way so hey, it's pretty standard, isn't it

Cheers!

Tom

Performer don't drop effects or save on stage unless it's crucial... Even if is doable, it's not reconmended. When insert fx Live actually creates audio dropouts occasionally though it's somehow moderate than the other studio daw.

[jeffh]

I feel there is something major missing in this discussion:

...

Tom

One of the best posts I've seen on KVR in a while... You really can't please everybody or even know exactly what everybody wants; Some of this stuff I knew existed (like MIDI VST plugins), but I had no idea that people really used it to the extent that lack of support for it would be reason enough not to choose a DAW


Part of the problem is that people want to change DAWs without changing workflows. Maybe some people could make better music in BWS doing things "the Bitwig way" than they could in Cubase doing things "the Cubase way", but choose not to because "OMG, this is not exactly how I'm used to working in Cubase!!!".

I develop (non-audio) enterprise software professionally, and I see this all the time... People want to switch from mature software to the hottest new not-yet-mature software, and then pitch a fit when it doesn't have literally every obscure feature the old software had accumulated in 10+ years of development...

[LawrenceF]

then pitch a fit when it doesn't have literally every obscure feature the old software had accumulated in 10+ years of development...

Uh... you mean Bitwig doesn't have Import Session Data?!?! Fail.

But yep.

[Biscotto]

I feel there is something major missing in this discussion:

...

Tom

One of the best posts I've seen on KVR in a while... You really can't please everybody or even know exactly what everybody wants; Some of this stuff I knew existed (like MIDI VST plugins), but I had no idea that people really used it to the extent that lack of support for it would be reason enough not to choose a DAW


Part of the problem is that people want to change DAWs without changing workflows. Maybe some people could make better music in BWS doing things "the Bitwig way" than they could in Cubase doing things "the Cubase way", but choose not to because "OMG, this is not exactly how I'm used to working in Cubase!!!".

I develop (non-audio) enterprise software professionally, and I see this all the time... People want to switch from mature software to the hottest new not-yet-mature software, and then pitch a fit when it doesn't have literally every obscure feature the old software had accumulated in 10+ years of development...

Absolutely. This is the reason why I'm using Reaper for example. I can bend it to my needs. I then use Live for what Live does best, without bitching for what it can't do for me. It's Live, not S1 or Reaper.
This huge collection of post it's actually showing not how bad BW is going to be, according to some posters, but how unhappy they are with their own (inferior?) host of choice.

[pc999]

You can also be disappointed that your Lamborghini doesn't have a shovel where that is pretty standard for excavators.
Both are cars with wheels in a way so hey, it's pretty standard, isn't it

Cheers!

Tom

Great post, any news on the new Beta???

[pdxindy]

I feel there is something major missing in this discussion:

Live is a DAW for live use. Logic, Cubase etc. are mainly targeted at studio use.

Now BWS is much closer to Live than to those other DAWs and clearly optimized for live use.

...<snip>...

Cheers!

Tom

I am happy that Bitwig is aiming at Live... because Live is my favorite host. Not that I think Live is the best, but because it comes closest to fitting my own interests... I've never wanted Live to add things like notation, comping, etc. I also have not wanted Live to add orchestral libraries and all the other add ons.

I would say that what I like most about Live is that it feels like an instrument. That can be for live performance, or for composition, but it is that quality I like best.

I would like Live to have better piano roll, midi tools, midi support (polyAT and not combining channels internally for example).

I am happy to have a host targeted at a specific audience. Keep the company small too so it can afford to stay targeted. Ableton is too big now.

Enter Bitwig... it interested me right from the start because it looks like it could be targeted to my needs. I hope Bitwig never adds comping, notation, event lists, etc. I don't need an engineers tool. I want a musical instrument.

I'm not so excited about the Bitwig roadmap. I think multi-user user music production over the internet is a fantasy feature. I am also ambivalent about the modular system.

I'm not impressed with M4L - It is cool to be able to make lots of devices, but it means launching another app, and the quality control is terrible. As a user who just wants to do things, I never know if a given device works with the current Live/Max combo. Lots of devices are buggy, incomplete and untended. M4L devices are relative cpu hogs. Even some of the included devices like the LFO are not fully integrated. I wish Live simply had a built-in LFO device.

The native Bitwig system looks like it will be superior to M4L in integration and hopefully cpu efficiency. Obviously it will not be as powerful as Max, but I don't need that myself anyway. However, modular systems are always a tradeoff. You gain in flexibility and lose efficiency. I might just rather have a solid set of midi and audio devices that are efficient and with some clever flexibility. I really like that you can currently nest devices in Bitwig. I find that a smart balance.

I think U-he strikes a great balance between flexibility, efficiency and ease of use. I find their offerings consistently fit my own sensibilities in balancing those things. Live is the host that comes closest for me, but it is still something of an uneasy fit. So even though I have been pretty happy with Live, I have stayed open to other options. I have no interest in a host that does everything or is the 'best', but I would like one where I consistently appreciated the choices made by the developer.

[Ogopogo]

Bitwig is the holy grail. Anyone who thinks otherwise is subhuman. Stop over complicating everything.

Anyway, did they give an expiration date for the latest beta?

[BMoore]

I guess your are having difficulty reading? For MIDI music creation, it's probably great. For a primarily audio production track with real instruments, probably not. It's pretty clear what I have written.

And it's pretty clear that I mentioned audio recording.

No you didn't. Not at all. And your analogy was ridiculous to begin with. That's like saying we all got along fine communicating and reading news before the internet, but as if most of us if we had the choice, would go back to life pre internet. Same thing with bitwig.. it's features may have been interesting around 2000-2001 period, as that's the level it's playing at. It's not even remotely in the major league. Not even by a long shot. But we have gotten used to certain luxuries since then and why would we PAY to regress? Another perfect example is life pre cordless and cell phones. We all lived happily, but would we ever go back? I don't understand why anyone EVER uses the "we all made good music with 4 tracks" routine.. it's irrelevant. It only matters what we are used to *now* and if a product released at a high price *now* is with the times.

The more you guys continue to push and not let this go, the more i am going to continue bashing bitwig. Seriously, i have had enough of this BS and personal abuse.

No. It's like saying YOU can make music without crossfading or elastic pitch.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[hibidy]

Ugggggggggg, I don't like where this thread is going.

Anyways, it's been an interesting read, some tears, some laughs, some good times, some not so good times.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[BMoore]

As I pointed out last time. You stir shit, apologizes, and two weeks later, you're back on the negativity again.
You denied this furiously, but nothing is so apparent to me that I was right, at this stage.

There is only one passive agressive shit stirrer here. And it's you. The sooner you get perm banned, the better for KVR.

[Tronam]

Part of the problem is that people want to change DAWs without changing workflows. Maybe some people could make better music in BWS doing things "the Bitwig way" than they could in Cubase doing things "the Cubase way", but choose not to because "OMG, this is not exactly how I'm used to working in Cubase!!!".

Well said. This probably also helps explain why so much time is often spent dwelling on what a program *can't* do in threads like this because once we've established a workflow we like, there's a natural resistance to any significant alterations to it. I've been plenty guilty of this myself over the years. It usually came down to some combination of these 3 things:

a) Not 100% happy with what I have
b) Curiosity about what else is out there
c) Hoping my workflow translates to wherever I go so I don't have to relearn everything

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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