Things I hate about... - Cubase 7

[filtafreq]

Ok I can tell you one thing, no bug free host exists unless you want to consider reason.

[Mod edit: Please don't do that.]

NOW THATS WHAT I CALL A GOOD REASON

[C-note]

Compyfox- Speaking as a 13 year Cubase user here, I have never had the issues you have had. Through MAC or PC computers (currently both) or Cubase vst Farms like FX Teleport or Vienna Ensemble Pro or audio interfaces like Focusrite, Digidesigns, Steinberg, Maudio, Balance or Kore 1, through track counts of 100 or more, I have never had the issues with Cubase you or others list here. Sorry that you are having them!

I did have an issue with a MOTU audio interface recently but after a weekend of frustration I sent it back. I certainly would not have the patience or time($) to allow Cubase six months of bugs in any configuration.

Truly, if I could not get some combination of hardware/software working in Cubase I would move on.

[Compyfox]

Why I write and keep this up...
It is to some part venting, to another part writing a huge warning. Just like various fallout's I had with "certain" developers (you know who you are).


I'm usually not that patient either, but if I can't afford another rig or host that costs about the same as Cubase, and might involve not only a steep learning courve but maybe also similar stress (if not worse), I rather try to fix things.

And to be honest, up until C7, I didn't have these issues. And I wasn't lied to in my face either. Example: "the RME drivers are at fault" - no they aren't!, "your rig is at fault" - after 3 reinstalls, no it isn't!, "it's the third party devs" - well then flokin' code your SDK correctly so that they don't have to jump loopholes to compensate your mistakes!



After weeks of testing, writing back and forth to various developers (including being a beta tester) and gear providers, the ultimate source of all evil is (currently) Cubase 7. And with my constant venting (so to speak), certian people finally listened up. And thankfully others were massively toned down!

Nothing is all shiny in software land. But that doesn't mean that we need to take every brown matter that is being sligned at us. A developer that invented certain standards in the first place can't simply mess up, and then blame it on other parties. While their representatives roam around music related webboards, tell you the blue from the sky and insist that you were using Warez.

Not cool.



Up to this point, I've taken a closer look at Logic 9/10 (170EUR MSRP, can't be beat - you only need an Online Mac), Studio One, Reaper, even to distract myself I looked at Bremmer Audio's host (which is fun, but is not good for large scale projects or engineering). ProTools (hate the current direction), Live (not my cup of tea), Samplitude (never liked it), Sonar (IMO a tad too complicated, and Sonar's history is also not the best)... won't touch my rig anymore. I might as well go for FLStudio - which really evolved in the last 10 years. Harrison lost me with "pay for Ardur and our 'locked VST's' - but hey, we funked up the code, so pay 99EUR again to get a working host!". Modular hosts are not my cup of tea, unless they're something like DDMF as add-on.

But that is all not the point here.



Maybe I'm just plain stupid and way too patient. I always think (especially as Beta tester) "the next version will be better - it will fix things". Not the case with Steinberg. I should have learned better by now - some developers listen to their customers, others simply code and forget that "we" exist, while others are fully aware of us and flip us the bird.



I am surprised though that almost nobody brought up issues with earlier Cubase versions as well. For example: Cubase VST5.x took months until it was even somewhat usable. SX1 on launch was a desater - hardware users locked out until SX3(!). Cubase 4 to Cubase 5 was a CPU hog (just like Cubase 7 is currently - blame it on the introduction of dual and quad core CPU's for that old version). Someone even remembers VST4 which was Mac only? And now we have the same issues again with C7.


On top of that:
Cubase VST5 was around the time that Pinnacle took over (or was it the "we drop PC and go Mac exclusive" VST4 disaster already? too long ago). That lasted until SX3 IIRC, then Yamaha took over. And now we're at a point again where there is ton of crap going on, but neither Cubase nor Nuendo are working hosts (to 80% max!). The support is in a lot of places more than sub-par, the marketing speech sky high and the customers (even power users!) massively pissed.

Apparently, I'm not the only one - yet I'm one of the loudest in here commenting. Which in turn is associated with being stressed out.



Of course I am stressed out, because I'm a freelancer and I can't work like I'm used to from Cubase 6 or SX3 times. I also wasted a lot of man hours for this, only to be constantly lied into my face or asked to "wait" (and bleed, with my money). And if you read a couple of posts back, C6.x does perform better overall! C7 should have been C6.7 and the development time being postponed another year at least.

Instead, we paid 200 EUR for an upgrade, expected a working version (which it somewhat did), only to see the developers funk up even more with every consecutive update. As freelancer, I simply can't afford an update very couple of months. So I try to get the best out of what I paid for.

And if I can't, I have to stay with what I have and bleed out at a later state if the prices go even higher.




A Question to you, Theo (and all others as well that critisize my... downpour):

You seem to have a fair share of problems with hosts yourself. Yet you still have Cubase, Wavelab, also Logic if I understand correctly. You even brought up the ASIO Guard issues parallel to me in the first place (but for Mac). Suddenly, you also fixed the Mavericks issue with both Cubase and Wavelab.

Why do you stick with it if you have even worse(!) issues than me? Why do you cling to an OS that constantly punished their user base since OSX Snow Leopard (personal impression - Apple is not free of bad updates either, somewhat recently read the news regarding iOS7 bricking tablets and phones?)?

Why is it so hard to accept that I only want a working tool and not spend hundreds of quids for another one or even a new rig (though after months of testing along with fellows, we found out that a hardware upgrade does not improve things by more than 3-5%!). But it is okay and adjusted what other people say?

It's not like that I can't work. I sure can. But not efficiently.

And this is my main point of critism. Along with the critism about the insolence to raise prices after that faux pas, and still ask for an update fee for an interim version.



I can also turn around the comment "just because you have these issues, doesn't mean others have as well" into something like:

"Just because you (the user) didn't find out/realize that the ASIO core is massively broken and the performance is drasically reduced (hello! It's staring in your face!), it doesn't mean that this issue is not there".

Close your eyes, look away - it's cool.
"I don't have an issue - just move on already! You go on my friggin nerves."


Again, with the tests I had to do in the last couple of months, where some friends were kind enough to tag along. I/we found out that the performance of Cubase 7 compared to Cubase 6 is about 20% worse overall! And that on modern rigs, with a newer host.

You didn't realize? Or you just don't care.
I can't tell. But from most of the posts by those people that were like "shut up already!", it looks like they don't.



I care, and stuff like that is important to me.

I want the new features, I want further development - if they make sense. But I don't want to ride a Porsche, and pay the price for a Porsch, but om turn get a capped motor where I feel like driving a tuned Volkswagen, yet the controls are like a friggin' spaceship!


So I play be pain in the butt - on purpose - because that is not okay!

But apparently, to others it is. And I don't get that.



I don't go haywire in Logic, Sonar or Reason threads either and be like "bro, you look stressed out - maybe it's time to move on? That host is crap anyway - I'm worried about your health".

Now what if suddenly all issues vanish with C8 (soonest - I'm still fairly sure of that)? I'm sure the hype and praise train will take off again without even looking into the fineprints or realizing the really bad happenings outside your comfort zone.

Live and let live!




Anyways...

It's past midnight over here, GMT+1. MPS starts in less than 10 hours.
We will see what happens then.

But don't be surprised if it is really Cubase 7.5. And also do not be surprised if it doesn't fix all mentioned issues, won't have wanted FR's since SX3 days, reimplement/rollback certain features that were funked up or taken out with C7, or drastically improve the performance (pretty much point 1 on the FR list).

If you are okay with shelling out 50 EUR for that trainwreck then (on top of 200-250 EUR later), since you like the ride and didn't have any issues so far, go ahead. Have fun.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Compyfox]

Gotta love long quote pyramids.

1) Yes, I could go back to Cubase 6.5 - but aside form the crap insert handling (overlay buttons), I like the new mix console way better (enhancements need to be done!). I also do like the Chord Track, which is very handy for a musical clutz like me. Also the metering "built" into the Control Room is interesting (which could still be drastically improved though). All that is not in Cubase 6.

2) Of course I could use Cubase 6 until infinity and beyond, but as you mentioned - I paid for it, I want to use it. Spent too much money-for-nothing in the last couple of years. Prime example: Cubase 5 (only used it for a couple of weeks, since i was in the middle of a move) and Kontakt 3 (got the update, never installed it).

3) Upgrade fees - no need to say more. Left out too many "in-between" versions before.

4) I want to stay competitive (important as freelancer), I want to discuss along. And C7 looked good on papers and in videos, so I went for it.



I won't touch the topic about "concerns" and the likes. I've seen other users in here being way more harsh on software than I am. In the host section alone, Cakewalk Sonar, Logic and Reason counts to that as well. So I'm cool either way, I have several other issues to worry about in parallel.



There you go, short answer, written, proof-read and double checked in 6 minutes flat.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Compyfox]

Great, I want the logic flex pitch editing of version x, the folder tracks especially, and midi plugins, but I can't have them without the plethora of bugs that follow. So I use a host that is stable and allows me to get my music done. Simple.

I understand all that - but in all seriousness... I expected (and still do) a working host that does at least the rudimentary stuff. And by that I mean, VST plugins and plain WAV channels. WIthout freezing or changin the buffer size in order to even work somewhat right (I use one of the best ADCs on the market after all).

Apparently, here lies the biggest problem. Not bugs with a Chord Track, or missing features/crap tagging of meters. If these would be broken, I'd say "meh - will be fixed eventually", I actually hope that my reports regarding the EBU R-128 standard will be taken seriously.

But I slam on a VST plugin that ate 1% ASIO power before C7, and now it eats 5-10% ASIO power. This should not happen.

I will lay out a fact for you. The performance bugs won't be fixed for at least another year, minimum.

Agreed - actually I don't think it will happen anymore within the C7 cycle - so in order to get this fixed, you need to spend even more money. And I was already critisized for spreading this thought as being "wrong". (see the MPS rumor thread).

Are you really willing to put in another year of this?

No!

Which is why I was so persistant with my support ticket. I won't go more in depth other than saying "things are in motion". Though at a way too slow pace.

You need a hug, so I'm sending you one! Cheers.

Hugs would actually be great. But that is a whole different topic.


Thanks anyway for your concerns. Appreciated.

[SODDI]

This explains everything. From the Steinberg website:

Made for each other: Cubase and HP
Finest software requires finest hardware. That's why our best software specialists rely on the world's leading PC hardware manufacturer. Cubase 7 is quality-tested with HP's professional Z series workstation computers, ensuring highest performance and maximum reliability packed in a rock-solid chassis. Carefully selected components optimized for recording, editing and mixing allow for efficient audio data transfer rates throughout the whole system. Be it the industry-proven Intel XEON processors or the ultra-fast SSD drives, HP Z machines squeeze the best out of Cubase, speeding up your entire studio software environment.

My wife has had two HP computers and they are crap, built by a company that was run by a Teabagger - and knowing those peoples's ethics and quality-of-work, I wouldn't trust them to build a doghouse. And you don't get a real copy of Windows with an HP machine, you get a proprietary low-level version of Windows HP.

I imagine that many serious Cubase users have very sensible machines built for them to their specifications by a sensible computer builders, with full copies of the Windows version of their choice (I use Pro 7), cleaned up, stripped down and tweaked for audio work. My builder specializes in building audio workstations, got him recommended to me by Atlanta Pro Audio - and mine worked out cheaper and more powerful than an off-the-shelf machine.

So I guess it is my rig. Cubase is designed to run on a shitty HP computer, not my good machine with good components and the full OS. It says so right on Steinberg's website.

Silly me. Oh, and hugs all around.

[egbert]

@compyfox

The Pinnacle era was actually pretty short - about 2 years IIRC. It ended shortly after the early release of SX3 - which could have been SX 2.5 but was rushed out for a cash grab before Pinnacle on-sold Steinberg to Yamaha. All of VST5 and the launch of SX1 was on Steinberg's own watch.

[Gambapaketera]

Compyfox, mate...do you want me to load a similar project than yours to see if i have the same issues?

I will definately buy 7.5, if we both have the same issues and they are fixed in the new version then you can safely buy it too

[Compyfox]

This is a closed test, and it was focused on the ASIO engine. Well we'd gather is some sort of Benchmark specs.

At this point, I don't even know if I want(!) C7.5 (I knew it from day one!). I miss the bugfix list, I miss certain feature roll backs (Insert Handling being one), I still find it outrageous to even ask that much money for this update.

Especially if the essence in terms of update what you're getting, is an updated project management system, saving of quick controls, some slight score editor enhancements and finally Instrument Track 2.0. The rest is VST/VSTi content!

So I'd like to take a closer look at the bugfix list first, maybe even be able to test it beforehand (which I'm sure won't happen before End of January yet again). Then I'll see if I waste 50bucks, and then 200 bucks again to go from C7.5 to C8 if it hits August 2014.



@egbert:
It's too long ago, don't remember everything in detail anymore. I only know that the "registration database" got lost for like 3-4 times. And let's not comment on server issues since C4 times.



@SODDI:
It's not your rig - it's Cubase.

I didn't waste the last couple of weeks for testing only to confirm their finger pointing. A couple of fellows and I (among it, a rig builder!) found out that the performance of C7 to C6.5 is actually around 20% worse. On top of that, no matter how fast your rig is, the difference in the ASIO load improvement is about 3-5% absolute max. That is pretty much nill for jumping several CPU generations.

ADC doesn't matter - the RME drivers work fine (Steinberg suggested them to be the cause as one of the first things). I tested like 8 different revisions, barely any difference in terms of the load (1-2%, depends on how you interpret the ASIO meter).

Now imagine me having an "old" i7 920 Bloomfield, or another one having an i7 870 (iMac 11.3). Now update to an Ivy Bridge and only have like 3-5% performance boost in Cubase 7. Cubase 6.5 on the other hand get's a boost of up to 15-20%! And does handle low latency better as well.



The critism is at the right place already, the results as well.
Things are in motion - I can't stress that enough.

And if people would be wise to NOT pay for C7.5, maybe this shows Steinberg "now wait a minute - people don't want to give in to our nonsense. We need a new strategy". But it's yet again "ooooh, shiney new tools! Must have!".

Especially if it's something that will:
a) be implemented regulary in C8
b) could have been right there form the start.



So we are actually skimmed of our money - twice!
And nobody seems to care. Because the real improvements, are IMO not worth 50EUR. More like 25EUR (like I recommended as new price model at the Steinberg boards).

Apparently, it's okay to a lot of users.

[mkdr]

Apparently, it's okay to a lot of users.

No. It's not. Most users just don't have the issues you have.

The update from C6.5 to C7 was a HUGE step up. Worth every penny.



I'm buying 7.5 as soon as it's available

[MFXxx]

Apparently, it's okay to a lot of users.

No. It's not. Most users just don't have the issues you have.

The update from C6.5 to C7 was a HUGE step up. Worth every penny.



I'm buying 7.5 as soon as it's available

Since 7.0 I've never been happier on Win8.1 i7. Will probably bite 7.5 once everything settles and I can see if it's worth the extra, I must say I am interested in the new features but saying that. I probably have enough.

I think in regards to everything I've used Reason, Sonar, Reaper, Live, Fruity Loops, Cubase, Maschine and started out on Sequencer1 many eons back with the Atari.

I love using plugins and the versatility this offers. Reason finally released plugin support (too late for me to even look back tbh).

Used Cubase on windows since 1997 onwards and never digressed. It works, I know the workflow, knows it's limitations, workarounds and 'issues'. I've grown up with it. Anything Mac I've avoided, even though it's considered as better for DAW performance?!. Apples routine upgrades and lack of compatibility, not to mention the array of plugins I would have missed out of that are available in windows, made Macs unappealing. ProTools was always a no go with their heavy duty audio interface dongle until the past few years.

I think it's simply a case of accepting what you know, working with your decision and changing anything that doesn't work. Personally I have found the loading and handling of multiple vsts very satisfactory and improved. Maybe its a pseudo improvement or maybe RME drivers have got better and the plugins I use have improved in the coding...who knows.

Personally I see very little wrong in the world of Cubase for my uses so i am lucky , I guess.

I do however maintain the latest is very good and a lot of bugs and issues I read about on various forums. I somehow often wonder if they are hardware issues, system problems, third party software or driver issues or systems that get used for more than just daw work. I've always had two hard drives in the one system. One hard drive boots to windows and everything in the outside world. The second hard drive for the DAW. This has served me well and saved me many headaches.

I don't mean to digress OT here, just sharing my positive experiences with Cubase in the world of DAWs.

Sorry to hear people are having issues...things I hate about Cubase...I know it so well I can;t be arsed to take the time to learn an alternative

peace

Footnote :

Curious. Without paragraphs, just bulletpoints. What are all the unresolved bugs that everyones niggling about please.

[Compyfox]

I think the most comments boil down to:

- the ASIO engine in general (being heavy on load, load improvements over various CPU generations are 3-5% at max, huge spikes especially within 32bit and below 1024samples - x64 actually performs more stable, but still high on load)
- the Insert Handling (the infamous "button overlay")
- feature cuts (like grouping, channel handling in general)
- core affinity bug (still present to some people)
- "always on top" bug (especially on dual screens, but since 7.06 also with overlaying windows on one screen - existing since 7.0)
- I encountered a random "delete project folder" behavior as well (could not be confirmed so far), especially if you have several project in one global folder, but start a new one and forget to save (and then close the host)


Thankfully enough - no crashes for me.

Just massive slowdowns and unintuitive GUI design (like, not vertically locked faders, meter offset can't be set for R-128, can't setup color codes as needed, host customisation was cut away).

SJ and SODDI might have way more. Then there was also the CoreAudio2ASIO "noise burst" bug for OSX Mavericks. And I tend to write "VST3 issues", but these boil down to the SDK and Wavelab.


RME drivers have actually no effect on the performance - this was the first that Steinberg told me (driver issues). And this is the main thing I checked several times (with wiping my rig a couple of times as well). From v3.085 to the most current HDSPe is a different of 1% max!

I tried tons of OS tweaks, OCing, RAM checks, different rigs alltogether with different ADCs, ASIO4all (just for the hell of it). The main issue on my end is the ASIO engine, which performs about 20% worse than prior Cubase versions. Even worse with the Guard being turned off.

And I could reproduce it every time, with a test project I got by Steinberg themselves.


Steinberg is aware of all this - but I was put on "hold" ("please be patient, we try to find the issue". Literally. So were the rest of us having issues or being dissatisfied with cut once-essential features.


The new price politics only adds to the debate.