So the Propellerhead's forum is down. Post in here if you normally post there.

[krucial]

Part of the reason I moved on, not going back either...the direction they are choosing to go now with barely adding anything in a update and releasing a ton of RE's for you to pay for separately plus not be able to resell them left a bad taste in my mouth. Not only that but the only way to activate the software is thru their site so if they were to go out of business, you won't be able to activate your software or rack extensions lol no thanks...they can keep that.smh

Yea, I don't understand why they've chosen to do it that way. Strikes me as stupid when considering how competetive the DAW market currently is.

Well Props get a 30% cut of every RE sale, so by making them NFR they're ensuring that they don't lose money to resales.

That's just greedy...smh it benefits no one but them. Not only that but the Rack extensions themselves are way too expensive for something you can only use with Reason and not resell, the whole thing is a lock in. They were slow in adding new features before rack extensions and but now that they've created a new revenue stream now all of a sudden they are coming out the woodworks with alot of new devices.smh

Greedy? The same company that gave you pay what you want upgrade? This is funny people were complaining for the longest that they took way too long to upgrade Reason. Now they are upgrading at a faster pace this is also a problem. One thing I respect them for is that you either take their product as it is or leave it. No need to try to please everyone its not possible or even worth it. A lot of REs are priced way less than the VST counterparts. If you are one of those users that need any and every RE yes it will become expensive. So is everything else in life.

Remember...pay what you want set everyone up to "BUY" Rack extensions. It was not some selfless act from a company it was a bait and switch to get people off Reason 5 and Record to introduce rack extensions for YOU TO BUY, Echo, Pulveriser and Alligator were early Rack extensions they were testing in Reason. Keep defending this company...you will be commended..

You still had the choice not to buy REs correct even though you paid a dollar for Reason? Again you could have paid a dollar for the upgrade and still not buy a single RE. You speak as if a gun was held to costumers head demanding that buy REs because they got Reason for a dollar. You should be happy with Reaper but you come off as the typical bitter former Reason user who simple can't move on. Keep attacking this company...you will be commended..

[Lunesis]

Part of the reason I moved on, not going back either...the direction they are choosing to go now with barely adding anything in a update and releasing a ton of RE's for you to pay for separately plus not be able to resell them left a bad taste in my mouth. Not only that but the only way to activate the software is thru their site so if they were to go out of business, you won't be able to activate your software or rack extensions lol no thanks...they can keep that.smh

Yea, I don't understand why they've chosen to do it that way. Strikes me as stupid when considering how competetive the DAW market currently is.

Well Props get a 30% cut of every RE sale, so by making them NFR they're ensuring that they don't lose money to resales.

That's just greedy...smh it benefits no one but them. Not only that but the Rack extensions themselves are way too expensive for something you can only use with Reason and not resell, the whole thing is a lock in. They were slow in adding new features before rack extensions and but now that they've created a new revenue stream now all of a sudden they are coming out the woodworks with alot of new devices.smh

Well, I could be totally wrong and they have a perfectly legit reason for NFR, but since they never bother to explain their decisions we just have to assume the worst.

If you think It's ok...that's fine but I don't hence the Reason I don't use the program anymore.

I don't think its ok. In other DAWs, they make their host software, then they make their own native plugins and charge you for that bundle. Then they give you the option to use any other plugins you have, without expecting any extra compensation from those. They only expect to get paid on the merits of their own software, as opposed to saying "Well, your software requires my host to run, so you have to pay me 30% of what you make!" They would get laughed at and told to go screw themselves because there are other hosts than can run their plugins.

With Props it seems like they have to take advantage of every financial opportunity they have within their closed market. "You want a piece of our userbase? Not without us getting some compensation! Don't worry tho, they can't resell our plugins so we'll both be making more money in the long run." Comes off as a bit shady. I really do love the software, but a lot of times the way they run their business comes off as really shortsighted and desperate.

[Tronam]

That 4 Dyne is incredible, i used it for an hour a couple months back at my mate's reason rig. I would LOVE a vst/Au of that. It just makes "sense". I mean one doesn't even need to read a manual, it is so easy to use.

I use ozone 5 now for any multiband duties as besides 4Dyne it is the only other option with perfect 100% sound preserving crossovers. But the interface especially on the multiband compressor is just not pleasant at all, it is so "busy". I am used to it, but would love 4 Dyne. That's actually one plugin that is reason only I envy (as well as audiomatic, scream4, murder (i mean can a drum step sequencer get any more logical than that?).

Has anyone ever asked the dev if he would consider an out of reason 4dyne for other platforms?

Yeah, 4Dyne turned out much better than I expected as Reason's first serious MB compressor (which is also a limiter/gate as well). Their Loudness meter is also extremely useful and nicely designed. Flower Audio is hitting 2 for 2 so far and I'm looking forward to whatever they release next. I'd love to see them publish for VST/AU as well, but I haven't seen any mention of that on their website or social media. They seem pretty dedicated to the RE platform.

[DocShay]

Yea, I don't understand why they've chosen to do it that way. Strikes me as stupid when considering how competetive the DAW market currently is.

Well Props get a 30% cut of every RE sale, so by making them NFR they're ensuring that they don't lose money to resales.

That's just greedy...smh it benefits no one but them. Not only that but the Rack extensions themselves are way too expensive for something you can only use with Reason and not resell, the whole thing is a lock in. They were slow in adding new features before rack extensions and but now that they've created a new revenue stream now all of a sudden they are coming out the woodworks with alot of new devices.smh

Greedy? The same company that gave you pay what you want upgrade? This is funny people were complaining for the longest that they took way too long to upgrade Reason. Now they are upgrading at a faster pace this is also a problem. One thing I respect them for is that you either take their product as it is or leave it. No need to try to please everyone its not possible or even worth it. A lot of REs are priced way less than the VST counterparts. If you are one of those users that need any and every RE yes it will become expensive. So is everything else in life.

Remember...pay what you want set everyone up to "BUY" Rack extensions. It was not some selfless act from a company it was a bait and switch to get people off Reason 5 and Record to introduce rack extensions for YOU TO BUY, Echo, Pulveriser and Alligator were early Rack extensions they were testing in Reason. Keep defending this company...you will be commended..

You still had the choice not to buy REs correct even though you paid a dollar for Reason? Again you could have paid a dollar for the upgrade and still not buy a single RE. You speak as if a gun was held to costumers head demanding that buy REs because they got Reason for a dollar. You should be happy with Reaper but you come off as the typical bitter former Reason user who simple can't move on. Keep attacking this company...you will be commended..

Your right no gun was to my head but most of their focus seems to be directed to Rack Extensions instead of Reason itself. I was looking for certain features in Reason, the last updates lacked and I also hated the direction they were going so I moved on.

[DocShay]

Yea, I don't understand why they've chosen to do it that way. Strikes me as stupid when considering how competetive the DAW market currently is.

Well Props get a 30% cut of every RE sale, so by making them NFR they're ensuring that they don't lose money to resales.

That's just greedy...smh it benefits no one but them. Not only that but the Rack extensions themselves are way too expensive for something you can only use with Reason and not resell, the whole thing is a lock in. They were slow in adding new features before rack extensions and but now that they've created a new revenue stream now all of a sudden they are coming out the woodworks with alot of new devices.smh

Well, I could be totally wrong and they have a perfectly legit reason for NFR, but since they never bother to explain their decisions we just have to assume the worst.

If you think It's ok...that's fine but I don't hence the Reason I don't use the program anymore.

I don't think its ok. In other DAWs, they make their host software, then they make their own native plugins and charge you for that bundle. Then they give you the option to use any other plugins you have, without expecting any extra compensation from those. They only expect to get paid on the merits of their own software, as opposed to saying "Well, your software requires my host to run, so you have to pay me 30% of what you make!" They would get laughed at and told to go screw themselves because there are other hosts than can run their plugins.

With Props it seems like they have to take advantage of every financial opportunity they have within their closed market. "You want a piece of our userbase? Not without us getting some compensation! Don't worry tho, they can't resell our plugins so we'll both be making more money in the long run." Comes off as a bit shady. I really do love the software, but a lot of times the way they run their business comes off as really shortsighted and desperate.

I agree, from a blinded by greed point of view I understand the decision, but I also see the other side. This very decision will backfire because a person thinking of the future will not invest into this when there are so many DAW's out there that allow a more open plugin format...especially now that Reason is becoming more like everything else only closed in.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Lunesis]

Funny how we all see things differently, i think considering they do all the transactions, a cut for the RE's is ok, and since they set up the store, download, install method, etc. Maybe 30% is a bit high, i dunno, considering they don't do any support for them (support lies with the individual developer). Maybe 15% would be fair

I can see that, but I would think that all those things you mentioned would be part of the Reason program itself, and so therefore they should wrap it into the price of Reason releases instead of taking a cut from developers. As far as I can tell, the last time anything having to do with RE being upgraded was when they rolled it out at 6.5. I remember the guy from Valhalla saying he would never port his reverbs over because of the 30% deal, which is a shame because they get rave reviews. I wonder how many other devs were turned off by that whole thing? From what I can see, Props need the 3rd parties a lot more than 3rd parties need Props.

[Tronam]

This is all old territory that's been debated ad nauseum both here and on the PUF. As usual, many good points made that I don't disagree with, but I think also overly negative. Everyone's perception of "expensive" will be different, but rarely have I felt REs to be overpriced. Softube gets closest, but the quality of their plugins is unmistakable and if Reason is your platform of choice then the investment is worthwhile. Not everyone jumps around from host to host like us KVR geeks. The product value is measured by its usefulness in your music. They're optional anyway.

Users have been begging Propellerhead for faster development and to open up the rack to 3rd party plugins for over a decade. In the past year or two we've seen more choice and accelerated Reason evolution than ever before, and despite R7 including the most user requested features in the program's history, apparently it's still never enough. There are definitely missing features I'd like to see, but this is the first time Reason has felt like a complete program to me, not just a Rewired instrument rack, and I appreciate the direction it's going.

The Rack Extension format definitely has some growing pains to work through still, but rather than rant about the same issues all over again I'd be very interested to hear some more balanced points of view from developers about it. With the list of upcoming REs continuing to grow from both new and returning companies, the value proposition must still be there. I'm guessing that host and OS compatibility is taken care of by the SDK including future operating system and Reason updates. That level of tight, stable integration along with final QA, copy protection, web presence, storefront sales and administrative overhead handled by Propellerhead without piracy might make the 30% revenue cut a worthwhile tradeoff for some devs, especially independent ones.

[Mr. Fister]

I personally thought your DSP findings regarding REs were indeed accurate, Theo.

Dont know if anyones ever had your back on that, but I do.

[Mr. Fister]

Part of the reason I moved on, not going back either...the direction they are choosing to go now with barely adding anything in a update and releasing a ton of RE's for you to pay for separately plus not be able to resell them left a bad taste in my mouth. Not only that but the only way to activate the software is thru their site so if they were to go out of business, you won't be able to activate your software or rack extensions lol no thanks...they can keep that.smh

Yea, I don't understand why they've chosen to do it that way. Strikes me as stupid when considering how competetive the DAW market currently is.

Well Props get a 30% cut of every RE sale, so by making them NFR they're ensuring that they don't lose money to resales.

That's just greedy...smh it benefits no one but them. Not only that but the Rack extensions themselves are way too expensive for something you can only use with Reason and not resell, the whole thing is a lock in. They were slow in adding new features before rack extensions and but now that they've created a new revenue stream now all of a sudden they are coming out the woodworks with alot of new devices.smh

Greedy? The same company that gave you pay what you want upgrade? This is funny people were complaining for the longest that they took way too long to upgrade Reason. Now they are upgrading at a faster pace this is also a problem. One thing I respect them for is that you either take their product as it is or leave it. No need to try to please everyone its not possible or even worth it. A lot of REs are priced way less than the VST counterparts. If you are one of those users that need any and every RE yes it will become expensive. So is everything else in life.

Remember...pay what you want set everyone up to "BUY" Rack extensions. It was not some selfless act from a company it was a bait and switch to get people off Reason 5 and Record to introduce rack extensions for YOU TO BUY, Echo, Pulveriser and Alligator were early Rack extensions they were testing in Reason. Keep defending this company...you will be commended..

"Pay what you want" - indeed, an interesting move.

What most people never noticed was "Pay what you want for this new addition to Reason, RE's, that are extremely inefficient and let's see how you like it."

The performance hit that Reason took with RE's was catastrophic. To a very big degree. Your breakdown on their "Bait" as well as siting how they were indeed "Testing" the whole format, which in my opinion is still going on as I dont think theyve spent enough time properly integrating RE's or OPTIMIZING them.

[Mr. Fister]

One more thing:

How many of you have ever spoken with any VST devs who are HIGHLY unimpressed with not only the SDK, but with the companys attitude too?

I have. And I not going to name the 2 companys. But I will tell you point blank, some have been so disrespected by the whole way Props treated them, they would never associte with Props again.

Trust me - Im not making this up. I was shocked to hear how one developer was treated. Then add their %30 cut.

Youre goddamn right about sticking with Reaper. It's so much more efficient its not funny. Reason's fine, but don't even give me the "all in one solution" line of BS considering its efficiency problems. That's what hinders it, IMO.

[digidennis]

I personally thought your DSP findings regarding REs were indeed accurate, Theo.

Dont know if anyones ever had your back on that, but I do.

what are KvRs stance on Mults throwing around with slander? sheeez..

[Tronam]

One more thing:

How many of you have ever spoken with any VST devs who are HIGHLY unimpressed with not only the SDK, but with the companys attitude too?

I have. And I not going to name the 2 companys. But I will tell you point blank, some have been so disrespected by the whole way Props treated them, they would never associte with Props again.

Trust me - Im not making this up. I was shocked to hear how one developer was treated. Then add their %30 cut.

Youre goddamn right about sticking with Reaper. It's so much more efficient its not funny. Reason's fine, but don't even give me the "all in one solution" line of BS considering its efficiency problems. That's what hinders it, IMO.

That's the problem with hearsay though. Until you know all the details and actually see the full exchange on both sides you have to be careful about drawing such sweeping conclusions. In my experience *most* developers maintain a mature and professional attitude. If it doesn't make business sense for a dev to adopt the SDK, agree to its terms and port their plugins, then they won't. Simple as that. Nobody is being forced to do anything against their will here, so your overly dramatic characterization isn't offering up anything constructive to the conversation.

[Mr. Fister]

I personally thought your DSP findings regarding REs were indeed accurate, Theo.

Dont know if anyones ever had your back on that, but I do.

what are KvRs stance on Mults throwing around with slander? sheeez..

What part of anything going on here is "slander"??

There's no slander here.

[Mr. Fister]

One more thing:

How many of you have ever spoken with any VST devs who are HIGHLY unimpressed with not only the SDK, but with the companys attitude too?

I have. And I not going to name the 2 companys. But I will tell you point blank, some have been so disrespected by the whole way Props treated them, they would never associte with Props again.

Trust me - Im not making this up. I was shocked to hear how one developer was treated. Then add their %30 cut.

Youre goddamn right about sticking with Reaper. It's so much more efficient its not funny. Reason's fine, but don't even give me the "all in one solution" line of BS considering its efficiency problems. That's what hinders it, IMO.

That's the problem with hearsay though. Until you know all the details and actually see the full exchange on both sides you have to be careful about drawing such sweeping conclusions. In my experience *most* developers maintain a mature and professional attitude. If it doesn't make business sense for a dev to adopt the SDK, agree to its terms and port their plugins, then they won't. Simple as that. Nobody is being forced to do anything against their will here, so your overly dramatic characterization isn't offering up anything constructive to the conversation.

Interesting, no way am I having an "overly dramatic characterization" = I actually spoken to 2 different VST devs who were downright offended by Props.

Im making that up? Or are you trying to say my first hand account of trying to get certain devs onboard with RE's never happened?