This might be a long rambling muddle.
Genres in electronic music are diverse, often interrelated, confusing and constantly changing (compared to, say, rock). New categories are invented at the drop of a hat by a musician or a music critic. When one musician does something new they're innovative and unique, but by the time two more have done something almost similar it's a new genre.
(On the other hand, "electronic" is a horrible genre; it'd be like categorizing all music with vocals as "vocal" regardless of whether it's opera or throat singing or Finnish folksongs or 19th century parlor tunes or Sinatra or Hank Williams Jr. or gangsta rap.)
Sometimes I go into an album with a focus in mind, but I always just make whatever music comes out. Most of it is somewhere in the general clouds of ambient, glitch, EMB, IDM, experimental. Some of it I wouldn't necessarily call anything but that's problematic.
Since getting Maschine I've been moving more toward something like Future Garage (but not quite), something like Dubstep (but not actually dubstep), and something like instrumental hip-hop (without quite being that either).
Over the last couple days I've been examining why I want to pin my music to a genre (or vice versa).
-- Part of it is to encourage people to listen to it who might be interested. If there's a random track on SoundCloud that has no useful genre tag on it, I'm probably going to skip it. If it's labeled "Future Garage" or "Wonky Dubstep" or "Powernoise" or something there's a better chance I will give it a try. This effect far outweighs the people who are looking for Psytrance or Soviet Death Polka or whatever who will ignore those tagged tracks.
-- Part of it though is a sense of belonging. If I can claim to be in the same tribe as Amon Tobin, Flying Lotus, Venetian Snares, Burial etc. I feel a bit less isolated. Being part of a weird group is much better than being a lone eccentric.
I have always had kind of a hesitation about tagging my tracks incorrectly ("Ha, somebody doesn't know the difference between Chipcore and Techburble!") but I'm starting to think, what the hell, tag it with something and it's probably more accurate than most online music store genre tags anyway.
on genre and belonging
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- KVRAF
- 8088 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
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- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
Never cared much for genres, so I prefer the broader terms. I have a pool of genre terms I mash together to genre my own music after it's created -
Acid - repeating, hypnotic, constantly changing, pulsating, slightly punkish, lofi
Jungle - double-tiered rhythms, sampled breakbeats, complex bouncy beatwork
Breakcore - see Jungle but with a screw loose
Progressive - often teamed with "Breakcore" to downplay the punkish elements and suggest a sense of having different sections or music that passes through phases or suggests a journey
Chipstyle - creative use of raw synthesis inspired by the chip masters
Chiptune - music created entirely within the technical constraints of a real or emulated soundchip
Abstract - no lyrics about booty or being in da club, titles may reference obscure books and stuff to appear smart
Braindance - dance music that does the dancing it's-self, and you can join in if you're not too worried about getting a hair out of place :p
Do these terms give me a sense of belonging? Not really, though probably a little bit. Personally, I've lost that social connection with my music, and I'd like to get it back. I used to be surrounded, at least online, by people who liked similar music to me, and I miss that. And when I was going to college in London I felt very much a part of the fringes of the Drum and Bass scene, but since that whole thing disappeared up it's own backbeat and became too sensible for it's own good, we've grown apart
Acid - repeating, hypnotic, constantly changing, pulsating, slightly punkish, lofi
Jungle - double-tiered rhythms, sampled breakbeats, complex bouncy beatwork
Breakcore - see Jungle but with a screw loose
Progressive - often teamed with "Breakcore" to downplay the punkish elements and suggest a sense of having different sections or music that passes through phases or suggests a journey
Chipstyle - creative use of raw synthesis inspired by the chip masters
Chiptune - music created entirely within the technical constraints of a real or emulated soundchip
Abstract - no lyrics about booty or being in da club, titles may reference obscure books and stuff to appear smart
Braindance - dance music that does the dancing it's-self, and you can join in if you're not too worried about getting a hair out of place :p
Do these terms give me a sense of belonging? Not really, though probably a little bit. Personally, I've lost that social connection with my music, and I'd like to get it back. I used to be surrounded, at least online, by people who liked similar music to me, and I miss that. And when I was going to college in London I felt very much a part of the fringes of the Drum and Bass scene, but since that whole thing disappeared up it's own backbeat and became too sensible for it's own good, we've grown apart
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8088 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
I guess the other thing is, I feel like genre tagging is something someone else -- as in, a reviewer, publisher or agent -- should be doing to your music.
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- KVRAF
- 4801 posts since 1 Aug, 2005 from Warszawa, Poland
To misquote the classic, I'm not sure I would like to be a part of a group that would accept me into it, especially a weird one. I rather prefer being a lone eccentric.foosnark wrote:Being part of a weird group is much better than being a lone eccentric.
In some cases fitting in a genre helps a lot with gaining exposure, it works if a genre is well defined, like death metal or hip-hop. I'm aiming in between of pop and experimental, which pretty much leaves me out of any tag that makes sense and makes me sound alien for both crowds. Still a tag is meaningful way of fitting in a mind, so I use tags, usually random and contradicting, like 'trap blues death opera' for example. I feel it works against me in some ways, but what the hell, I will take it.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8088 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
I think I need a balance of solitude and community, but lately I've lost most of the community stuff. (Coworkers got laid off, I changed jobs, I left the temple I was in, I left the taiko drumming group I was in...) And my wife has been talking along the same lines.
And so I'm seeking a sense of community of sorts in music production, rather than to set myself intentionally apart. But I'm only willing to bend so far; I have to stay true to myself.
Music was originally very much a community thing. Groups of people singing together to pass the time while working, drumming and dancing in celebration and ritual, and so on. Then divisions between composer, performer, and passive audience came into being. And of course now we make music without performing it (in the usual sense) and even without composing it (in the usual sense), and the listener is disconnected from this and receives a finished product. This isn't inherently bad; it's a different art form and just as valid as painting or sculpture or architecture. But it doesn't connect people as directly.
(This is something I liked about being in the taiko group. What I didn't like, though, was it took away time and energy from creative pursuits, since 97% of the time I was performing other peoples' work; plus it's damned exhausting.)
(And I know, I was just posting a week ago or so about how I make music for me, and anyone else is just incidental. So I'm contrary.
)
And so I'm seeking a sense of community of sorts in music production, rather than to set myself intentionally apart. But I'm only willing to bend so far; I have to stay true to myself.
Music was originally very much a community thing. Groups of people singing together to pass the time while working, drumming and dancing in celebration and ritual, and so on. Then divisions between composer, performer, and passive audience came into being. And of course now we make music without performing it (in the usual sense) and even without composing it (in the usual sense), and the listener is disconnected from this and receives a finished product. This isn't inherently bad; it's a different art form and just as valid as painting or sculpture or architecture. But it doesn't connect people as directly.
(This is something I liked about being in the taiko group. What I didn't like, though, was it took away time and energy from creative pursuits, since 97% of the time I was performing other peoples' work; plus it's damned exhausting.)
(And I know, I was just posting a week ago or so about how I make music for me, and anyone else is just incidental. So I'm contrary.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
THISfoosnark wrote:I guess the other thing is, I feel like genre tagging is something someone else -- as in, a reviewer, publisher or agent -- should be doing to your music.
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- Banned
- 9890 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
when you're made to feel that you don't belong in the first place, it makes it easier to not care about belonging later on. it's nice to be appreciated but i get appreciated for a lot of stuff in life that really doesn't matter much to me so appreciating something myself is the first and foremost priority, otherwise why bother?
what's the question again? genre? what's that?
tl;dr: musically, i'm a selfish f**k that could care less about being categorized because it's usually inaccurate in some purist's thinking anyway, so you wanna make something out of it?
what's the question again? genre? what's that?
tl;dr: musically, i'm a selfish f**k that could care less about being categorized because it's usually inaccurate in some purist's thinking anyway, so you wanna make something out of it?
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- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
In all fairness I don't really see how folk uploading their music have a choice but to attatch some kind of label. Given that 99.9% of stuff uploaded will never see a critic or probably get more than 200 plays, placing it in a genre at least allows it to be found more easily by someone who might want to hear it.
On the other hand, I completely agree, and what especially annoys me is when people feel the need to overly "speak for" their music, pointing out just how and why it's a masterwork of genius and the profound feelings it should elicit within the listener. The music should speak for it's-self.
Someone I used to know who wrote gothic rock would write endless liner notes to his CDs, self-reviewing and gushing over his achievements. It was enough to send you to sleep
On the other hand, I completely agree, and what especially annoys me is when people feel the need to overly "speak for" their music, pointing out just how and why it's a masterwork of genius and the profound feelings it should elicit within the listener. The music should speak for it's-self.
Someone I used to know who wrote gothic rock would write endless liner notes to his CDs, self-reviewing and gushing over his achievements. It was enough to send you to sleep
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!
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- Banned
- 9890 posts since 14 Nov, 2006
Haha, I don't have genres labelled on my soundcloud and only briefly mention genre in my band description. THEY'LL NEVER FIND ME BIOTCHEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Sendy wrote:In all fairness I don't really see how folk uploading their music have a choice but to attatch some kind of label. Given that 99.9% of stuff uploaded will never see a critic or probably get more than 200 plays, placing it in a genre at least allows it to be found more easily by someone who might want to hear it.
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- KVRian
- 1224 posts since 2 Dec, 2008 from Finland
I think genre is strongly connected to interpretation (of the performer, not the listener).
Similar to having a toolbox consisting of carefully chosen bits and pieces is often positive for creation itself .. It sets certain limits, within which everything is possible. Genre is similarily limiting factor, and I think it's a good thing. It sets a framework. Without those frameworks, we'd call it either fusion, music or fusion music.
Obviously it's good when we do have some sort of a label to attach, we can look out for artists doing similar kind of stuff, or avoid that kind of stuff entirely.
And it's very much about interpretation, when someone takes a song, and plays it in another style, ie. take a death metal song and interpret it with a chamber orchestra, or take a jazz standard and play it reggae.
Personally, I only play suomiroots, it's the only thing I can play.
Similar to having a toolbox consisting of carefully chosen bits and pieces is often positive for creation itself .. It sets certain limits, within which everything is possible. Genre is similarily limiting factor, and I think it's a good thing. It sets a framework. Without those frameworks, we'd call it either fusion, music or fusion music.
Obviously it's good when we do have some sort of a label to attach, we can look out for artists doing similar kind of stuff, or avoid that kind of stuff entirely.
And it's very much about interpretation, when someone takes a song, and plays it in another style, ie. take a death metal song and interpret it with a chamber orchestra, or take a jazz standard and play it reggae.
Personally, I only play suomiroots, it's the only thing I can play.
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- KVRAF
- 21348 posts since 26 Jul, 2005 from Gone
Whoa! Let's start by doing some categorizing of this 'something' and determining which existing pattern it most neatly conforms to. Maybe we should have a system of words that vaguely describe the category at the outset and if something falls outside of that we define other somethings with slightly different names that allow us to expand to the ever evolving somethings that no longer fit the original term. Once we've done that we could have subcategories of somethings that could then be further subdivided if other somethings no longer fit those definitions.debra1rlo wrote:you wanna make something out of it?
Obviously we couldn't go any further without this taxonomy being in place as it's critically important to something so exacting and precise as music...
Sorry, what was the question again?
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theodore_whitmore theodore_whitmore https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=297562
- KVRist
- 155 posts since 29 Jan, 2013
Some semi-coherent thoughts.
-Tagging is inherently perverse. Should you be making, say, generic trance then you can just label your Soundcloud page DJ Foosnark Trance. Your Beatport releases would go automagically into the trance box. No track tagging needed. The further you move from a generic box the less relevant and more pliable the tags become. Are you describing a stylistic Venn diagram? A summation of process, or content? A subcultural identity?
-The music I make doesn't tend to sit neatly in a generic box. Not because I'm sniffy about making generic music-rather because when I try to it comes out without a strong identity compared with my self indulgent, rambling stuff. I try and do a sensible job of tagging it nonetheless, as a convenience to my notional listeners. Sample tags 1: ambient, abstract, electronic
2: bass, sublow, breakbeat, grime, remix
They don't say much of anything about what the tracks sound like but hopefully give an idea of whether someone is likely to connect with them in a given moment.
-Burial is a great example. How would you tag his material? Dubstep, garage, ambient probably covers it generically. I wouldn't say any of his material sits comfortably inside any of those genre boxes though. What about by content? Machine soul, melancholy, downbeat? Are you describing it for likeminded friends or commercial advantage?
-Someone else probably should be tagging your material. It's silly enough trying to do it sensibly for someone elses music. Who is your publisher or agent though. I don't have a clear notion whether it is better to get someone else, semi-arbitrarily, to step into the breach, to try and put sufficient distance between myself and the music, or make it part of my personal expression.
-The only people who can justifiably say their music transcends description are grade-A geniuses and grade-A assholes. I tend more to the latter than the former. But would hate to be tagged as such.
-Tagging is inherently perverse. Should you be making, say, generic trance then you can just label your Soundcloud page DJ Foosnark Trance. Your Beatport releases would go automagically into the trance box. No track tagging needed. The further you move from a generic box the less relevant and more pliable the tags become. Are you describing a stylistic Venn diagram? A summation of process, or content? A subcultural identity?
-The music I make doesn't tend to sit neatly in a generic box. Not because I'm sniffy about making generic music-rather because when I try to it comes out without a strong identity compared with my self indulgent, rambling stuff. I try and do a sensible job of tagging it nonetheless, as a convenience to my notional listeners. Sample tags 1: ambient, abstract, electronic
2: bass, sublow, breakbeat, grime, remix
They don't say much of anything about what the tracks sound like but hopefully give an idea of whether someone is likely to connect with them in a given moment.
-Burial is a great example. How would you tag his material? Dubstep, garage, ambient probably covers it generically. I wouldn't say any of his material sits comfortably inside any of those genre boxes though. What about by content? Machine soul, melancholy, downbeat? Are you describing it for likeminded friends or commercial advantage?
-Someone else probably should be tagging your material. It's silly enough trying to do it sensibly for someone elses music. Who is your publisher or agent though. I don't have a clear notion whether it is better to get someone else, semi-arbitrarily, to step into the breach, to try and put sufficient distance between myself and the music, or make it part of my personal expression.
-The only people who can justifiably say their music transcends description are grade-A geniuses and grade-A assholes. I tend more to the latter than the former. But would hate to be tagged as such.
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- KVRAF
- 5223 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
Sometimes, when I'm feeling naughty, I'll just type random characters in the "genre" fielddebra1rlo wrote:Haha, I don't have genres labelled on my soundcloud and only briefly mention genre in my band description. THEY'LL NEVER FIND ME BIOTCHEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Sendy wrote:In all fairness I don't really see how folk uploading their music have a choice but to attatch some kind of label. Given that 99.9% of stuff uploaded will never see a critic or probably get more than 200 plays, placing it in a genre at least allows it to be found more easily by someone who might want to hear it.
Take that, Western... thought... category... thingy!
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!