Problem with Time Signature

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We're going into really obscure meters that I don't think are appropriate.

My guess is this is more of a problem with the idea itself than it is with expressing it (edited: Had it backwards. :lol:)

That is: She may be envisioning it wrong. This happens because there are no barriers setup in our heads - we gravitate unconsciously to a certain time signature, but we expect to write in 4/4 and that causes confusion.

It's a very common thing to happen to musicians in their first 5 or so years, and they lack the experience and know-how, the sort of understanding of their music and how they write it to solve these apparent problems.

For example, when I first started out, I would find myself trying to fit 3/8 patterns into 4/4 time. Sometimes I'd be able to tweak them to fit into 4/4 time, and other times, the song would fall apart for obvious reasons.

And I knew I loved 3/8 time, but I didn't realize how much of my music wanted to be written in it.

I think we all have an "internal time signature" that we gravitate to, and it's not always 4/4, but the way we hear it in our heads could make it sound that way.

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I found the problem with my connection, which was my router's firewall.

Here's my sample:

http://www.daxix.com/samples/CelebrationWIP01.wav

It's straight 4/4 triplets until the end of the fourth bar, where it all falls apart.

140bpm.

midi (for some reason it's adding space on the end...

http://www.daxix..com/samples/TimeSignature.mid
Blue Phase Music

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My example was four repeats of the pattern.
Blue Phase Music

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And yes, I'm pretty much an absolute beginner when it comes to theory. :(
Blue Phase Music

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4lb Kitty wrote:And yes, I'm pretty much an absolute beginner when it comes to theory. :(
Don't sad face!

I'm pretty sure this is just a psychological problem.

The psychology of writing music is so treacherous these days for newer composers.

You hear all this music, all these different styles, and you have no formal training to help you make sense of anything.

So your unconscious musical impulses clash with your conscious expectations and it confuses you.

The only real cure is continued exposure. I say "continued exposure" like a pretentious butthole. :roll:

But it's true.

Over time, you will learn to think in beats and measures, and these sorts of things will no longer be an issue because every melody and beat and harmony you come up with will fit time signatures you've naturally trained yourself to adhere to.

I'm having trouble downloading the MIDI to play with it, but I'm going to try to help as best as I can.

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http://www.daxix.com/samples/TimeSignature.zip

Try downloading that instead. I don't know why my server doesn't like midi files.
Blue Phase Music

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it sounds like there is a syncopation at the end of bar 3 and bar 4 is confusing to me after it, I lose the downbeat. I, as a definite exponent of odd time and one person that LIKES to dance to very tricky things, find this to not work so well, losing 1 like that. Bar 3 comes across as 15/16 here and it loses the groove.

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The only difference between all bars is the very last beat of bar 4. 1, 2, and 3 are exactly the same, and there's a final beat added at the end of bar 4, which is then extended by 3/16.
Blue Phase Music

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I'm hearing (I think) 3 bars of 4/4 and one bar of 5/4:

x - x - xx -- (3x)
x - x - xx -x --

(x = sounded eighth-note; "-" = unsounded eighth-note) (eighth-notes are swung).
Last edited by cryophonik on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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This rhythm works in my head and when I hear it looped, but I need to figure out the time signature so I can continue on and add melodic parts.

Remember, the midi file has a little space added at the end for some reason. This came directly from S1 2 Pro, but my looped time segment is correct. I don't understand what's happening with that.
Blue Phase Music

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cryophonik wrote:
murnau wrote:
but then you have to use 9/8
But, 9/8 is a compound triple meter. unless the song has a triplet feel (which presumably is not the case, given that the OP stated that it sounds like four bars of 4/4 time plus an eighth-note [i.e., duple meter]), switching to 9/8 time would have the correct number of eighth-notes, but not the correct beats and divisions. IOW, trying to sequence/score a song with a duple time using a triple meter is not ideal, particularly if the piece is intended to have 16th- or 32nd-notes played "straight". Then again, it's entirely possible that it is indeed a triplet feel - we're sorta stabbing in the dark here without an audio example.
slight derailment here as per trying to sort kitty out, but '9/8' is just a name for it. 9/8 might be compound triple ie., 3x3 or 3/4 + 3/8, or it might be 4+3+2, or it might be 4+4+1, it doesn't per se mean more than 'nine eighth notes to a bar'.

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I see what Kitty did wrong.

The problem is with her note values.

That's why I wanted the MIDI file. This is a 4/4 beat through and through.

You placed the last note of your rhythm in an odd place. Observe:

Image

Does this work better? It's a touch different, but may be more of what you had in mind:

Around 125 BPM:

Image

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jancivil wrote:
cryophonik wrote:
murnau wrote:
but then you have to use 9/8
But, 9/8 is a compound triple meter. unless the song has a triplet feel (which presumably is not the case, given that the OP stated that it sounds like four bars of 4/4 time plus an eighth-note [i.e., duple meter]), switching to 9/8 time would have the correct number of eighth-notes, but not the correct beats and divisions. IOW, trying to sequence/score a song with a duple time using a triple meter is not ideal, particularly if the piece is intended to have 16th- or 32nd-notes played "straight". Then again, it's entirely possible that it is indeed a triplet feel - we're sorta stabbing in the dark here without an audio example.
slight derailment here as per trying to sort kitty out, but '9/8' is just a name for it. 9/8 might be compound triple ie., 3x3 or 3/4 + 3/8, or it might be 4+3+2, or it might be 4+4+1, it doesn't per se mean more than 'nine eighth notes to a bar'.
Yeah, that's true - I was really responding more to murnau's comment about using a sequencer. If I'm not mistaken, don't most DAWs automatically force you into a compound triplet meter (e.g., note divisions, metronome accents) when you choose 9/8 time signature? I'm at work with no access to a DAW to check this. But, if your DAW forces you to use 9/8 as a triple meter, it can be difficult and confusing to sequence something that is actually in duple meter. But, maybe I'm wrong and, if so, sorry for the confusion!
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having the midi, yeah, my confusion is not in this 3rd bar. I don't have tons of time for this so I'm going to assume the idea is correctly expressed in the first four bars of the file and there is a problem later and focus on the 4 bars. yeah, it's def. 4+4+4+4/4 + 3/16. It feels like 4 3/4 beats, that bar. I think the one after that has to come down hard and whether it works for the audience is going to depend on how well you pull it off. I think you need more experience with rhythm to pull this off, tbh.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HaganeSteel wrote:I see what Kitty did wrong.

The problem is with her note values.

That's why I wanted the MIDI file. This is a 4/4 beat through and through.

You placed the last note of your rhythm in an odd place. Observe:

Image

Does this work better? It's a touch different, but may be more of what you had in mind:

Around 125 BPM:

Image
Trust me, they line up on triplets at 140bpm.

I'm still having trouble with the last hit in the pattern.
Blue Phase Music

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