The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

[rockstar_not]

Just popping in here to ask what may be an obvious question - where does this face above come from? What meme have I missed out on?

And Bitwig, just tell us price so I can decide whether you are on or off the list for my next DAW consideration.

[3ee]

^ the meme comes from 9gag AFAIK and ... just google for "troll" to show images

Bitwig doesn't have a price tag yet, we can speculate but it probably won't do any good.

Hope it won't be too expensive... cheaper than Ableton anyway!

[audiohouse]

We lost the cat war, shame on you dogs.

[hibidy]

It's funny, but used also by mean people who have control issues. Like for example

"the thread is not going the way I expected it, so have a troll face"

Or

"I'm an asshole, have a troll face"

Of course then again, it can be used in the genuine article from time to time. Like many things in life, troll face is unpredictable.

[OzWozEre]

^ the meme comes from 9gag AFAIK...

Don't let the shitheads @4chan hear that

[pc999]

Hope it won't be too expensive... cheaper than Ableton anyway!

+111111111

[LawrenceF]

With the niggles I meant more stuff like one person dismissing a host because you couldn't tab through tracks.

Tom

Yeah, that was me Tom. And to be clear, I didn't dismiss the host. I only wondered how such a common data entry method escaped everyone in the dev shop.

The issue becomes clear when you have to rename 60 tracks and instead of just typing and tabbing a-la-MSExcel, you're typing and opening and closing dialog boxes for every track. It has nothing much to do with music but it sure does make data entry a chore.

The root point (which wasn't a complaint but more a question) is that all these apps are - first and foremost - software applications, and being such they should conform to the most instinctual and common software methodologies, like tabbing through fields when doing any kind or repetitive data entry.

There are quite a few things like that which seem to escape smaller shop developers who (apparently) don't really use a wide variety of media software. Another that I mentioned is the escape key. It's there to escape operations and if it doesn't do that, its not doing what's expected by users of any software.

Anyway, it wasn't a gripe since I had no intention to buy that product anyway. I just thought out loud how some developers focus so much on the "cool" stuff that they sometimes completely overlook some really small things.

[Ogopogo]

edut. nm

[c_bomb]

^ the meme comes from 9gag AFAIK...

Don't let the shitheads @4chan hear that

also - toasting in epic bread

[ThomasHelzle]

With the niggles I meant more stuff like one person dismissing a host because you couldn't tab through tracks.

Tom

Yeah, that was me Tom. And to be clear, I didn't dismiss the host. I only wondered how such a common data entry method escaped everyone in the dev shop.

The issue becomes clear when you have to rename 60 tracks and instead of just typing and tabbing a-la-MSExcel, you're typing and opening and closing dialog boxes for every track. It has nothing much to do with music but it sure does make data entry a chore.

The root point (which wasn't a complaint but more a question) is that all these apps are - first and foremost - software applications, and being such they should conform to the most instinctual and common software methodologies, like tabbing through fields when doing any kind or repetitive data entry.

There are quite a few things like that which seem to escape smaller shop developers who (apparently) don't really use a wide variety of media software. Another that I mentioned is the escape key. It's there to escape operations and if it doesn't do that, its not doing what's expected by users of any software.

Anyway, it wasn't a gripe since I had no intention to buy that product anyway. I just thought out loud how some developers focus so much on the "cool" stuff that they sometimes completely overlook some really small things.

I agree wholeheartedly

And I think I understood how you meant it, but used it as an example for how different people are. It never even occurred to me in any host to try to tab between tracks. But such "small" things can actually make you dismiss or dislike a host and it may be something somebody else may find totally insignificant.
For one person it's the GUI colours, for the next missing notation, one relies on side-chaining a lot and another needs take lanes.

All this was related to that I don't subscribe to Ogopogos view that Bitwig is simply "better" than Live and so Live will become insignificant with time - that's way too simplistic for many reasons.

One other such reason is, that Ableton actually needs a big kick in the behind, otherwise they will get lost in their complacency that they showed so blatantly in the Live 9 Beta. If Bitwig should actually start to take away users, how fast do you think they will re-evaluate their stupid comments from the Live 9 Beta like "nobody uses tagging". Done the way it's done in Bitwig, most people will. Simple as that. There are a lot such areas that could be "easily" enhanced that people have gripes with for ages. Nothing better than having some actual competition to show how to do it right.

And this should keep both companies on their toes, which is the important part IMO.
The absolute worst are companies without any need to move their buts
It's the death of creativity.
I don't want neither BWS nor Live to be the only hosts of that kind on the market.

Cheers,

Tom

[sl1914]

Agree 100%. Competition between Ableton and Bitwig should be good for users of both DAWs. If one company is not interested in some feature the other can implement it and see if users appreciate it or not. It will be really interesting to see what kind of things will be added to Live after version 9.

[Ogopogo]

I don't subscribe to Ogopogos view that Bitwig is simply "better" than Live and so Live will become insignificant with time - that's way too simplistic for many reasons...

...how fast do you think they will re-evaluate their stupid comments from the Live 9 Beta like "nobody uses tagging". Done the way it's done in Bitwig, most people will. Simple as that.

If there's something that you would recommend 9 out of 10 times, then you can pretty much say that's the best. You say that's simplistic, I say that's just not over complicating the issue. My original point was mostly just that they definitely ARE in direct competition and not complimentary. Killing might be going to far, but I wasn't set on that or a least I didn't mean to be. So I don't think its crazy to think that one is going to come out on top of the other. I mean the key here is that these guys are really selling to the exact same audience, they really are basically the same thing, the difference just being extra features and tweaks. There are no two major daws that are so similar.

I mean taking another look at the small stuff that you say is the kind of stuff that determines a choice from similar hosts. Gui colors - yes I grant you that one, it's purely preference. Missing notation - neither has it but judging by the old school linear/multitrack composing stuff that bitwig has i'd say if it ever happened it is more likely to happen in bitwig. Side chaining - well right now bitwig is at a disadvantage there but I don't see that as a small niggle thing at all (even though i don't need it) it's a certain function, and once it's added as dom says it will be the two hosts will be the same. Take lanes - neither has it. So all that stuff - same. A wash. How far do you have to go to really find the differing niggles between the two? "I prefer a smaller transport bar" or "now I have to drag across the screen to get a sampler from the browser to a drum machine (an actual niggle from me)." Pretty deep, pretty small. Well within people's ability to adapt for the most part. And that's without thinking about how many niggles bitwig just plain wins at from clever tweaks. Now remember I'm not saying nobody could find something they really cared about. But for 9 out of 10, it's not an issue.

@Lawrence. Let's say you had to choose between Bitwig and Live for making music. Only lets says ableton has tab through track and bitwig doesn't. Is that truly a deal breaker for you? Or can you decide to live with that for the extra bitwig features?

And if ableton needed to be told that people will use tagging during the live 9 beta, after bitwig was announced with the metabrowser as a flagship feature, after NI has been using tagging for years, well that's just that's just more reason to think that there is a possibility these guys could get knocked off the top from where I sit. Yes, there is a lot to be said for a kick in the ass as I mentioned before. And surely a better ableton will come out of it. But to what exent is the question. Maybe they will kick it into overdrive and push towards the opposite extreme, crushing bitwig. I dunno, though seems unlikely. Eternally playing catch up is not going to win them anything and their ability to innovate compared to bitwig is in question.

[LawrenceF]

I agree wholeheartedly

And I think I understood how you meant it, but used it as an example for how different people are. It never even occurred to me in any host to try to tab between tracks. But such "small" things can actually make you dismiss or dislike a host and it may be something somebody else may find totally insignificant.

Cheers,

I knew you would, being a clearly reasonable and sane person.

Obviously, the KVR "Hosts" forum often has severe tunnel vision. What only matters is what we individually do and other workflows are just... irrelevant. My polite and accurate "constructive criticism" comments about that product caused a bit of unnecessary push back.

Thanks Thomas.

[LawrenceF]

@Lawrence. Let's say you had to choose between Bitwig and Live for making music. Only lets says ableton has tab through track and bitwig doesn't. Is that truly a deal breaker for you? Or can you decide to live with that for the extra bitwig features?

It's never quite that simple.

The problem with we daw whores is that we often can't suffer (even accurate) criticism of what we love. Tabbing through tracks is just - one - thing, but if you mention that one thing, someone who loves that product will imply that it's the only thing keeping you away from it, and that you're being unreasonable, even if you never even said any such thing.

I'd never have to choose between Bitwig and Live because neither product has any apparent value for me personally.

Anyway, different people, different needs. There's a list of very good reasons why most professional mix engineers mix in PT... and it has nothing at all to do with what Bitwig and Live are good at.

At any rate, no matter what a workstation's specialty is, housekeeping always comes into play with larger projects so overlooking that aspect (imo) does users a disservice.

[Ogopogo]

I agree wholeheartedly

And I think I understood how you meant it, but used it as an example for how different people are. It never even occurred to me in any host to try to tab between tracks. But such "small" things can actually make you dismiss or dislike a host and it may be something somebody else may find totally insignificant.

Cheers,

I knew you would, being a clearly reasonable and sane person.

Obviously, the KVR "Hosts" forum often has severe tunnel vision. What only matters is what we individually do and other workflows are just... irrelevant. My polite and accurate "constructive criticism" comments about that product caused a bit of unnecessary push back.

Thanks Thomas.

You know part of the reason I'm engaging in this is that I feel that this reasoning is trotted out far too often. It's like people think that everybody is running around with these notions that there's one daw out there that's so pro that it's going to make them pro. So the most important thing is to spread that word that there is no best! It's purely subjective. There is no uber daw! It's all about you and your workflow! But it isn't purely subjective. And in some cases it makes a lot of sense to compare, maybe even to say better or best. This is definitely one of them.

You see a similar sort of thing on GS all the time. People always railing about how really its the person who uses the tools and not the tools themselves! A good song is a good song period! You can't buy a compressor that's going to get you onto the billboard charts! But nobody ever actually claims any of that stuff. GS is more infested with people who think those lines are the pinnacle of producing philosophy and repeat it at every opportunity than it is with people with people to whom that advice is really needed. Because when you are immersed in all the buzz about gear it's easy to imagine a bunch of dopes running out and spending their whole saving and then throwing their arms up wondering why they aren't the beatles yet. And it's gratifying to know that you are not that guy; you are above it. But see if you ever run into that guy in real life; he's just an amalgamation of the worst bits your happened to hear online.

It's never quite that simple.

It's perfectly relevant though. Since you've dodged the question I'm thinking that it's what I suspected. Although you really like that feature, its not enough to make you choose Live when there is so much extra you could get by going with bitwig. And so it is with 90% of people I think. And I say dodged the question because I believe it is answerable. If you had too.

You say PT is different than what Bitwig and Live are good at. Well we are not talking about pt as obviously pt is in a different category; but you have lumped bitwig and live in the same category, rightly so.