Problem with Time Signature

[jancivil]

but '9/8' is just a name for it. 9/8 might be compound triple ie., 3x3 or 3/4 + 3/8, or it might be 4+3+2, or it might be 4+4+1, it doesn't per se mean more than 'nine eighth notes to a bar'.

Yeah, that's true - I was really responding more to murnau's comment about using a sequencer. If I'm not mistaken, don't most DAWs automatically force you into a compound triplet meter (e.g., note divisions, metronome accents) when you choose 9/8 time signature? I'm at work with no access to a DAW to check this. But, if your DAW forces you to use 9/8 as a triple meter, it can be difficult and confusing to sequence something that is actually in duple meter. But, maybe I'm wrong and, if so, sorry for the confusion!

Cubase doesn't force any kind of thing like that; it does express the grid in certain ways such as it would actually help in this case if you told it 9/8.

I imported the midi into Cubase and I get an extra 3/16 however. Screenshots to come...

[Vintage73]

having the midi, yeah, my confusion is not in this 3rd bar. I don't have tons of time for this so I'm going to assume the idea is correctly expressed in the first four bars of the file and there is a problem later and focus on the 4 bars. yeah, it's def. 4+4+4+4/4 + 3/6. It feels like 4 3/4 beats, that bar. I think the one after that has to come down hard and whether it works for the audience is going to depend on how well you pull it off. I think you need more experience with rhythm to pull this off, tbh.

Okay.

I may file this one away for a while then.

I'll just see if I can do anything melodically before I do, though.

[HaganeSteel]

I see what Kitty did wrong.

The problem is with her note values.

That's why I wanted the MIDI file. This is a 4/4 beat through and through.

You placed the last note of your rhythm in an odd place. Observe:



Does this work better? It's a touch different, but may be more of what you had in mind:

Around 125 BPM:

Trust me, they line up on triplets at 140bpm.

I'm still having trouble with the last hit in the pattern.

What you think is a triplet rhythm may not be a triplet rhythm. You may be confusing yourself to think that.

Turning down the tempo and adjusting where the notes are placed gives roughly the same kind of groove.

If what you showed me was all you have so far, I think you're just interpreting what I had as "swing", which is, again, a common mistake.

I say all this because if this is what you had/started with, and you're having trouble fitting things together with it, then you don't really have a written foundation for it yet, so you may not know where those notes fit into the larger whole.

This is more likely the result of musical retention + no structural foundation causing confusion on how to actually work with meter to create the kind of groove you're hearing in your head.

Edit: Just to clarify: If you have a kick-snare 4/4 rhythm, and you hit the 16th note just before the snare, it can create a kind of swing or rolling effect that inexperienced composers can/have misinterpreted as triplets.

So what I'm saying is - if that's all you have, you don't really know if you're writing in triplets in the first place, and it's unlikely that you're working in such an odd meter.

[jancivil]

I believe you have it right with 'extra 3/16ths'.

[Vintage73]

When I posted this thread originally it wasn't triplets, and there was an extra 1/8th. Something didn't feel right about that, though, until I moved to triplets and the extra 3/16ths, when it clicked.

I'm still going to see where I can take this, but I'll put it aside if I don't get anywhere with it soon.

Thank you, All.

[jancivil]

What you think is a triplet rhythm may not be a triplet rhythm. You may be confusing yourself to think that.

Turning down the tempo and adjusting where the notes are placed gives roughly the same kind of groove.

If what you showed me was all you have so far, I think you're just interpreting what I had as "swing", which is, again, a common mistake.

I say all this because if this is what you had/started with, and you're having trouble fitting things together with it, then you don't really have a written foundation for it yet, so you may not know where those notes fit into the larger whole.

So what I'm saying is - if that's all you have, you don't really know if you're writing in triplets in the first place, and it's unlikely that you're working in such an odd meter.

No, that isn't what happened here, you're reading a lot in. There is a 4/4 thing and, for all four bars, on 3 there is a pretty common reggae type of swing, with an empty 4th beat. Then in bar 4 the same thing as happens on 3 happens on 4, a reiteration, and now 3 16ths before the ONE in bar five. I am a bit thrown by the 4th beat doing that followed by that 3/4ths of a beat.
One could have like a convincing cute drum fill there but I think you'll find more joy keeping it simple instead.

[Vintage73]

What you think is a triplet rhythm may not be a triplet rhythm. You may be confusing yourself to think that.

Turning down the tempo and adjusting where the notes are placed gives roughly the same kind of groove.

If what you showed me was all you have so far, I think you're just interpreting what I had as "swing", which is, again, a common mistake.

I say all this because if this is what you had/started with, and you're having trouble fitting things together with it, then you don't really have a written foundation for it yet, so you may not know where those notes fit into the larger whole.

So what I'm saying is - if that's all you have, you don't really know if you're writing in triplets in the first place, and it's unlikely that you're working in such an odd meter.

No, that isn't what happened here, you're reading a lot in. There is a 4/4 thing and on 3 there is a pretty common reggae type of swing for all four bars with an empty 4th beat. Then in bar 4 the same thing as happens on 3 happens on 4, a reiterationg, and now 3 16ths before the ONE in bar five. Full Stop, I assure you with total confidence.

Does it work for you or do you think I should start a new project?

[HaganeSteel]

When I posted this thread originally it wasn't triplets, and there was an extra 1/8th. Something didn't feel right about that, though, until I moved to triplets and the extra 3/16ths, when it clicked.

I'm still going to see where I can take this, but I'll put it aside if I don't get anywhere with it soon.

Thank you, All.

I know I'm grilling you a little bit. I'm sorry for this, but I have to say this:

If that's all you have, then the combination of tempo + being able to place notes anywhere you want is going to mess you up.

If it truly worked, you'd be able to create other rhythms alongside it and it would sound good.

It'll click when you have no trouble fitting other instruments in there.

Trust me. I've been where you are. I know this procedure.

[jancivil]

What you think is a triplet rhythm may not be a triplet rhythm. You may be confusing yourself to think that.

Turning down the tempo and adjusting where the notes are placed gives roughly the same kind of groove.

If what you showed me was all you have so far, I think you're just interpreting what I had as "swing", which is, again, a common mistake.

I say all this because if this is what you had/started with, and you're having trouble fitting things together with it, then you don't really have a written foundation for it yet, so you may not know where those notes fit into the larger whole.

So what I'm saying is - if that's all you have, you don't really know if you're writing in triplets in the first place, and it's unlikely that you're working in such an odd meter.

No, that isn't what happened here, you're reading a lot in. There is a 4/4 thing and on 3 there is a pretty common reggae type of swing for all four bars with an empty 4th beat. Then in bar 4 the same thing as happens on 3 happens on 4, a reiterationg, and now 3 16ths before the ONE in bar five. Full Stop, I assure you with total confidence.

Does it work for you or do you think I should start a new project?

yeah, per my edit, I think keep it simple is the more productive path right now. I have to make a judgment call, I think you need more experience with rhythm to make this happen for the next person, to be honest.

[jancivil]

This is a good example of what I advise people, it's best to get the thing from the standpoint of a player. I may be wrong but I'd bet this is step-entered from an idea in the head that didn't manifest prior to using the sequencer.

[jancivil]

If I had to fix it, I would do something real simple such as just cut the extra ticks. Cut your losses and move on, you're at a point where you're attached to an idea that probably isn't going to manifest in a useful way for you.

[Vintage73]

This is a good example of what I advise people, it's best to get the thing from the standpoint of a player. I may be wrong but I'd bet this is step-entered from an idea in the head that didn't manifest prior to using the sequencer.

This is what happened when I tried to sequence something that was perfectly formed in my head.

I had a hard time getting it to conform in my host.

And no, I don't know theory, though I used to be a bass player.

I've had these troubles before. Maybe it was said right that I just have an odd natural rhythm.

[jancivil]

there isn't any theory to worry about, it's that you're having a hard time making it manifest in the sequencer.

I have a very odd sense of time, I grew up with records like Adventures in Time, Stan Kenton orchestra. I think the most meaningful thing I can convey here is, that, AS IS, I lose the one there, so something would have to happen to resolve it. A real strong emphasis on one [of bar 5 etc], and I don't just mean hit it hard, something convincing has to go down there.

I had suggestions but scratch that, I don't want to impose onto your thought, I don't have in mind what you do. I think sending the midi to different percussions will be useful.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Theoretically you could sequence anything, if you worked and sample accuracy and did not snap to grid. In practice, after years of sequencing "odd" rhythms I realized that I'm just too old and lazy for all that work: why spend hours trying to get a feel when you can just play it acoustically?

If you insist on sequencing, velocity, timbre, attack and sustain of the drum (or other instrument laying out the beat) can make or break an "odd" rhythm completely.
Notice that the traditions with the most extreme rhythms generally have "singing" drums.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Here's something that might be making it more difficult than it is: you might be putting a pickup "4" in as "1". Maybe try looping it not from what you have as 1, but from the next beat.

It's just a suggestion.