Chord Inspector Questions

[como baila]

One of the reasons many of us like RC is because we are not strong on music theory and want the harmonic assistance in the program.

With that in mind, I have several questions and possibly a feature suggestion or two.

1). What is the meaning of "Chord Suggestions?"

When I examine these suggestions, it is not clear whether they are intended as substitutions for the currently selected chord in the master track or for progression to the next chord change.

Neither of these seem quite right. If I choose one of the 'suggestions,' the chord then often turns red, indicating that it is not harmonically consistent with the current selected key for the part. If it is a suggestion for the next chord in the progression, then it should ask me at which bar/ beat I want that chord inserted.

Could you please clarify what 'Chord Suggestion' is supposed to indicate?

2). Why aren't the chords displayed when you convert the I IV V I starting progression to the harmonically correct chords for the key? If I change the Roman Numerals to the Key of C, showing C F G C in the master track, I then expect to see this in the chord inspector: C Dm Em F G Am Bdim ... but instead I see C D E F G A B.

My feature request would be that any time a key is set in the master track for a part that all the chords shown in the chord inspector following that key setting should reflect the diatonic chords of that key; and, if the key is changed for a part later in the master track, the chord inspector should now show the new harmonically correct chords for the new key.

[tolstoevsky]

Good questions/suggestions as usual, como-Prado
Cheers,
T.

[J.F.K.]

What is the meaning of "Chord Suggestions?

After some testing I think that the intention is to give you a few suggestions for the next chord based on the chords of the previous progression.

[como baila]

What is the meaning of "Chord Suggestions?

After some testing I think that the intention is to give you a few suggestions for the next chord based on the chords of the previous progression.

You're probably correct ... but it still needs better labeling, e.g., "Next Chord in Progression Suggestions," and, really there should be a way to enter it from the chord page where it is suggested, as opposed to having to flip back and forth between chord pages selected by highlighting the current chord, e.g., "Place Suggested Chord at Beat #?"

[como baila]

More 'confusion.'

It does not appear that the 'Chord Suggestions' are in anyway linked to the currently active key/ scale selection in the Part. As I noted before, if they were, the Chord Inspector for C Major should open to display C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim and not the C, D, E, F, G, A, B that it now displays.

Why do I think this? Because the suggestions (assuming as J.F.K. suggests point to the next or following chord in a progression) give choices that are not even available in the current key when the Chord Inspector is open or next time you reopen the Chord Inspector to try to place one of the suggested chords in the master track within the current Part.

The chord suggestions seem to assume that the currently selected chord in the Chord Inspector is the root chord of the key. While this has some usefulness, it is very limited. One would need to go back to the root chord of the part each time to find selections, and there are no suggestions for either substitutions or 'paths' from the current chord selected in the master track forward.

I must conclude that the Chord Inspector considers each selected chord as a root chord and not as a diatonic chord within the chosen key/ scale of the part.

Can anyone demonstrate otherwise?


I may be misunderstanding this, but if so, I'd love to have someone clarify it for me.

I believe for this feature to be truly useful, the Chord Inspector must be 'informed' by the currently active Key/ Scale set in the Part and then 'inform' the Chord Inspector so that when it opens the correct diatonic scales are displayed. Then the 'Chord Suggestions' should display valid chord substitutions for whichever of the 7 (or less, depending upon the scale) chords in the Chord Inspector is highlighted/ selected.

[ronky]

I believe for this feature to be truly useful, the Chord Inspector must be 'informed' by the currently active Key/ Scale set in the Part and then 'inform' the Chord Inspector so that when it opens the correct diatonic scales are displayed. Then the 'Chord Suggestions' should be display valid chord substitutions for which ever of the 7 (or less, depending upon the scale) chords in the Chord Inspector is highlighted/ selected

.[/quote]


+++1 !!!

[J.F.K.]

It does not appear that the 'Chord Suggestions' are in anyway linked to the currently active key/ scale selection in the Part. As I noted before, if they were, the Chord Inspector for C Major should open to display C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim and not the C, D, E, F, G, A, B that it now displays.

I haven't yet analyzed the behaviour of the chord suggestion feature in detail, but generally speaking, chord suggestions do not necessarily include only the chords of the current key. Actually, the function would be pretty trivial, if it would do just that. Instead, it shows you chords that are related to the previous chords in any way.

[como baila]

It does not appear that the 'Chord Suggestions' are in anyway linked to the currently active key/ scale selection in the Part. As I noted before, if they were, the Chord Inspector for C Major should open to display C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim and not the C, D, E, F, G, A, B that it now displays.

I haven't analyzed the behaviour of the chord suggestion feature in detail, but generally speaking, chord suggestions doesn't not necessarily include only the chords of the current key. If it would do just that, the function would be pretty trivial. Instead, it shows you chords that are related to the previous chords in any way.

Perhaps you should analyze the behavior? Then we could have an 'on the same page' discussion.

I am open to my analysis being incorrect, but if so, I'd like to see it corrected.

Clearly there are 'chord suggestions' from parallel or related keys that would be appropriate. I'm not saying there are not or that they shouldn't be included ... if there were a way from the Chord Inspector to select them.

What I am saying is that it makes no sense to make a chord suggestion based upon the currently selected chord in the Chord Inspector if that selected chord is being considered as a tonic chord in the suggestion process, as opposed to being considered as the actual type of harmonic chord it plays in the progression, i.e., Tonic, Supertonic, Subdominant, etc.

It also makes no sense to not indicate whether the suggestion is a substitution or a progression.

Finally, it makes no sense to make a chord suggestion when the suggested chord cannot be selected from the inspector's 7 semi-tone based chord offerings.

I'd love for my analysis to be wrong and for someone to point out where I miss the mark.

[J.F.K.]

Perhaps you should analyze the behavior? Then we could have an 'on the same page' discussion.

OK, why not. I will enter some simple chords into the master track to see what chord suggestions I get.

To keep it simple I use C major key. I enter the first chord: C major. Chord suggestions: None. Makes sense for me. Since the progression is at its starting point, there can be no suggestion.

Now I double click next to the C major chord in the master track. RC enters an new C major chord at the point where I have clicked. Chord suggestions now: G, F/C, F, G7, Cmaj7, C7, Dm, Am. All of them make sense, they belong to the C major key. Note, that B dim is not offered as a chord suggestion. I find that also reasonable since a diminished chord would be inappropriate at this point.

From the offered chord suggestions I choose F major. The second C chord in the master track changes to F now.

Now the list of Chord Suggestions has changed. It shows D, C/C, C, D7 Gmaj7, G7, Am, Em now. It's true, not every shown chord belongs to the C major key. For instance the chord D major. Why is it suggested? Well, the current chord of the progression is F major. That's the degree IV of the C major key. The chord D would be the degree IV of the scale A melodic minor. So, this would be a possible continuation of the progression. Same with D7. G7, Am, Em are chords of C major key. Also possible continuations. Gmaj7 is a variant of the dominant seventh chord. With major7 it gives a different tone as the regular G7, but why not, it could work.

Now I double click again on a free place at the master track. RC enters another F chord there. But the Chord Suggestions are diffent than before: G, D, D7, F, Bb, Em, Am, A7. Interesting. Now that my previous chords of the progression are C and F, Rapid Composer now suggests, that I could go to G. Makes perfect sense. But RC really seems to be a fan of the D chord, since it is still there. But it's now on the second position. Also interesting that now F is in the list. Maybe RC thinks, why not stay a little longer at F? Bb is also in the list. That would be the IV degree of the F major key. When using this chord, I could modulate to F major. Absolutely a possible continuation.

So actually, I find that the chord suggestion feature works quite well. What do you think?

[como baila]

Thanks for the effort ... now we are getting somewhere.

But two important points remain.

Now I double click again on a free place at the master track. RC enters another F chord there. But the Chord Suggestions are diffent than before: G, D, D7, F, Bb, Em, Am, A7. Interesting. Now that my previous chords of the progression are C and F, Rapid Composer now suggests, that I could go to G. Makes perfect sense. RC really seems to be a fan of the D chord, since it is still there, but now on the second position. Also interesting that now F is in the list. Maybe RC thinks, why not stay a little longer at F? Bb is also in the list. That would be the IV degree of the F major key. When using this chord, I could modulate to F major. Absolutely a possible continuation.

1. The displayed main 7 chords shown in the Chord Inspector remain the Majors of the C Major semi-tone intervals ... not the correct diatonic chords of the key/ scale. Surely a display of the proper harmonic chords for the chosen key/ scale would be an improvement ... don't you think?

2. There is no way (that I have discovered) for the Chord Inspector based upon a Part in C Major to enter a Bb ... even if I wanted to go there from F.

You do illuminate a useful workflow: retain the last chord; insert it in the time line; and, then pick from the suggestions. That is helpful.

Thanks.

[J.F.K.]

1. The displayed main 7 chords shown in the Chord Inspector remain the Majors of the C Major semi-tone intervals ... not the correct diatonic chords of the key/ scale.

No, there are not only shown major chords at the chord inspector. The list C, D, E, F, G, A, B means only the root note of the chords. Below you find the list of the chord types. Click on D for instance. You will see that the first entry at the list of chord types now is "m". That means that the "standard" chord with the root note "D" at the C major scale is D minor.

Now click on B. The first entry at the list of chord types is now "dim". Got it?

2. There is no way (that I have discovered) for the Chord Inspector based upon a Part in C Major to enter a Bb ... even if I wanted to go there from F.

There is a check box "Constrain To". Uncheck it and you will get a little surprise.

[como baila]

1. The displayed main 7 chords shown in the Chord Inspector remain the Majors of the C Major semi-tone intervals ... not the correct diatonic chords of the key/ scale.

No, there are not only shown major chords at the chord inspector. The list C, D, E, F, G, A, B means only the root note of the chords. Below you find the list of the chord types. Click on D for instance. You will see that the first entry at the list of chord types now is "m". That means that the "standard" chord with the root note "D" at the C major scale is D minor.

Now click on B. The first entry at the list of chord types is now "dim". Got it?

2. There is no way (that I have discovered) for the Chord Inspector based upon a Part in C Major to enter a Bb ... even if I wanted to go there from F.

There is a check box "Constrain To". Uncheck it and you will get a little surprise.

RFLAO!

So why did you wait so long to surprise me!


Yes, now I got it ... and I conclude that the suggestions are substitutions, not 'next' chord in the progression.

Anyone who wants to get 'unconfused' also should read this thread and follow my confusion arguments until J.F.K straightens them out.

The other 'obvious' that I overlooked was that the chord root note of the chord which is selected is dark green, as is the specific chord type in the little selection boxes arrayed below the 7 root notes.

With all this digested I retract my remarks except for the following:

1) Don't display chord substitutions that are not available in the 'Constrained' Key/ Scale;

2), and, Rename the label to "Chord Substitution Suggestions: Uncheck 'Constrain To' For More Suggestions."

Sheepishly yours,

Como

[J.F.K.]

I conclude that the suggestions are substitutions, not 'next' chord in the progression.

That is probably correct if you enter a new chord at the master track. Then the suggestions can be understood as substitutions for the current position at the master track. But if you click at one of the suggested chords, you will see that a new list of suggested chords is presented. This new list are then probably chord suggestions for the next chord. But I'm not absolutely sure about that. Maybe Attila can clarify that.

Rename the label to "Chord Substitution Suggestions: Uncheck 'Constrain To' For More Suggestions."
Como

If the checkbox "Constrain To" is checked then the display at the chord inspector is limited to the chords that belong to the scale that is set next to this checkbox. If the checkbox is unchecked, then this restriction is lifted and you see all imaginable chords. But these chords are not "more suggestions". They are simply all chords that RC knows. The "Constrain To" checkbox has nothing to do with the chord suggestions.

[como baila]

I surrender.

When starting to work with this I must have had a program glitch, as clicking on the suggestions was not updating the chord. On recent reboots I now recognize that those suggestions can be 'clicked' directly to update the chord ... even when the chord cannot be displayed in the array due to the "Constrain To."

Thanks a lot, J.F.K. ... you've really helped me (and probably a lot of others) out!

Now you need to get with Chris and make a video on this!

Como

[J.F.K.]

One point of criticism that I have for the chord suggestions is that the user cannot see, why the chords are suggested. The suggestions contain also chords that will lead to modulations into other keys, but the user does not necessarily know that. Using only the chords from the list of suggestions can easily lead to an aimless meandering in the harmonic space and the music will then sound accordingly. It will sound "correct", but aimless.

The individual chord suggestions may sound reasonable, but I think the user also needs tools that allow him a master planning of the chord progression. Maybe a circle of fifth that indicates where I currently am in the harmonic space could be helpful. Also suggested chords that belong to a different key could be displayed with a different color. In this respect, there is still much room for improvement.

The chord palettes already offer different coloring schemes (the settings "By Harmony", "By Tonality", "By Common Notes", "By Chord Suggestions"), but at least for the setting "By Tonality", I do not find out what it actually means exactly.