64bit plugins while MIDI is still 7 bits

[S0lo]

I know this is rather controversial. And I know the two subjects are totally unrelated. And I'm probably going to regret posting this. But I need a mind purge

2014, every one is so worried about trying to upgrade to 64bit plugs (like it's any thing related to sound quality). Steinberg almost drops vst 2.4 in-favor of vst 3. Analog emulation and if it's 99% accurate people will still say it's not the same thing (so what). While MIDI control is still 7 bits (14 bits at most and still not vastly supported)

I don't have to spell this out but I will. 7 bits gives you 128 values. Thats 128 steps for each knob turn on your MIDI controller. My mouse does better than that (vertical screen resolution is 800+). And if you think 14 bit midi is high res (16384 values), remember that analog control voltage is infinite.

This doesn't just affect your controllers and the plugs you control, digital synths that internally use MIDI will suffer from the 128 values stepping on knob turns (I don't want to name names). Digitally controlled ANALOG synths will suffer from it if they internally use MIDI too (you know them). It's everywhere.

MIDI is great, but the resolution is so out dated. Don't say 14bits please, I experienced CV, For me, I won't call it hi-res unless it's 16 bit and more, (I should say 32 bit by now). Steinberg, Dave Smith, M-Audio, Korg, Roland, etc... please do some thing

[Phil999]

And I know the two subjects are totally unrelated.

that's correct.

2014, every one is so worried about trying to upgrade to 64bit plugs (like it's any thing related to sound quality).

this has to do with workflow and especially when using large sample libraries that profit from 4+ GB RAM. 64-bit doesn't sound better than 32-bit. But that you probably knew already as well.

So, why this question?

Most softsynths interpolate 7-bit data, and you don't hear the steps. Higher resolution is also not very relevant for most parameters. Only tuning and filter cutoff parameters really take advantage of 14-bit resolution. That's why pitch bend was set to 14-bit right from the start in 1983. This resolution is absolutely sufficient.

The problem lies elsewhere, mostly in the DAW's implementation of MIDI (no parameter feedback for example, difficult to setup or lacking 14-bit resolution). It's a problem that won't get solved soon, as there is not much hardware around that sends OSC (Open Sound Control). Luckily there is a trend back to CV. My last two mini-keyboards I bought both receive, convert, and send CV.

CV, MIDI, OSC, they all exist side by side, and it's working perfectly well in my opinion. If it does not for you (or anybody), just ask.

[S0lo]

this has to do with workflow and especially when using large sample libraries that profit from 4+ GB RAM. 64-bit doesn't sound better than 32-bit. But that you probably knew already as well.

That is correct.

Most softsynths interpolate 7-bit data, and you don't hear the steps.

Interpolation is NOT like hi-res. It FAILS big time when you turn a knob very slowly. softsynths can NOT detect your speed at first until you move from one MIDI value to another, and if your speed changes, it won't work. Try it on filter knob while on high resonance turning very very slowly, and change direction of your movement while in the middle of 2 values.

Higher resolution is also not very relevant for most parameters. Only tuning and filter cutoff parameters really take advantage of 14-bit resolution. That's why pitch bend was set to 14-bit right from the start in 1983. This resolution is absolutely sufficient.

You might not hear the stepping for other parameters, but it's there. Stepping introduces brief sharp changes in waveforms which cause high frequencies to appear briefly, you might not hear them, but you will feel the sound a bit edgy. Add all that stepping happening to all parameters at the same time and you will hear some thing wrong. Not a problem if you like the effect, but the idea is that you are FORCED to have them.

The problem lies elsewhere, mostly in the DAW's implementation of MIDI (no parameter feedback for example, difficult to setup or lacking 14-bit resolution). It's a problem that won't get solved soon, as there is not much hardware around that sends OSC (Open Sound Control).

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying as part of the problem.

Luckily there is a trend back to CV. My last two mini-keyboards I bought both receive, convert, and send CV.

Yes, but you need one physical CV port per parameter, What if I have 30 or more parameters in my synth. This would raise the price of your controller, not to mention the cabling spaghetti. And anyway, you can't send CV to a computer without a special piece of software/hardware like silentway, MOTU Volta or something. A problem, that MIDI should have solved with only two cables.

[caonoize]

While I certainly agree that 7 bits seems like an Achilles heel, I very seriously doubt you're going to get 16 bits from a carbon film potentiometer. I'd say that 14bits with good data smoothing in the host will get you anything you could reasonably expect with a strictly analog path. The host could even introduce slop for the potentiometer end point where you stopped moving the thing. I know just how hard it is to nail a specific 7 bit midi value with a small knob on my Krome as I like to set the chorus on the Rhodes Mk1 sample to 72, so this story is about movement, and not placement. Fourteen bits with say a least squares fit over four points, would give you a placement of 12 bits or 4096 values, with smooth transition that really shouldn't zipper. Can you say with a straight face that you can set a knob to that sort of accuracy? Simulated voltages from LFOs and EGs are internal to your synth, so who cares about the controller there.

Sorry to rant, but we need to solve MIDI problems we genuinely have rather than problems we imagine we have.

[S0lo]

Fourteen bits with say a least squares fit over four points, would give you a placement of 12 bits or 4096 values, with smooth transition that really shouldn't zipper. Can you say with a straight face that you can set a knob to that sort of accuracy?

They don't even do 14 bits the way they should, I have an M-AUDIO venom here that can do 1024 steps on the filter (10 bits). The knobs are endless rotating. I can certainly move step by step (well some times 2 or 3 steps) and HEAR the stepping when on high resonance. 4096 values would be much smoother I agree. Newer moog synths (that have presets) are supposed to do 14 bit, As far as my last test, my slim phatty does less, like 12 bits or some thing when I monitored it's MIDI out.

Sorry to rant, but we need to solve MIDI problems we genuinely have rather than problems we imagine we have.

The industry is all over solving problems that we don't have or imagine we have. Take the sampling rate for example, The long debate about how 96KHz and 192KHz sound better, and the newer interfaces that can do that. While the nyquist theorem assures you that if you just do 44Khz right, all the way, you will hear no deference (we simply can't hear above 22Khz). Take the 64bit move, only like 5% of all plugins will benefit from the large memory usage, I agree that this is still very important. But it seams that each and every plugin out there is being ported to 64bit, for god sake why do you need plugs like sylenth or Zebra as 64bit?!!, they hardly use anything more than 30Mb (32bit allows 2Gb), and there are tons of plugins like that. Further more, I'm afraid that DAWs are heading towards dumping 32bit totally, think of the mount of effort done by all plugin developers to make sure they have 64bit versions of there plugins, WHILE THEY ACTUALLY DON'T NEED IT. Isn't that "solving problems that we don't genuinely have" ?

Still thats all fine, But, If the industry is so keen on providing hi end, above the limits for high quality sound like this, then why is it such a difficult task to provide plain old MIDI, a 30 years old GOOD technology with some re-engineering. Why only this subject is being ignored. Potentiometer can't do? solve it, find a way, your the engineers, you've got the brains.

Do 14bit then advertise it as "HD controller", cash in for that, Then 5 years latter do 16bit, ads, cash in. You're already doing this with sampling rates.

Say that all what I said is wrong, and it's completely exaggerated. You still agree with me that 7bits is on the low side. Well, the higher side is not there!!, proper 14bit is not there!! only a few controllers (Numark, Akai I think, and some DJ stuff) have it, Most DAWs don't support it easily, most plugins don't support it. Whats worse is that it doesn't seams to be coming any soon.

[pljones]

There's been a good replacement for most of what's wrong with MIDI around for a long time in Open Sound Control. So it's not like there is any need to design anything new. OSC is supported by quite a few DAWs but what's more important is the hardware support. This is not a software problem. If hardware had OSC over USB, then the support for it would appear overnight.

(Note: one primary reason for 64bit plugins is that it's nice not to have to bit-bridge. Nothing to do with whether the plugin needs it, it's just a layer of complexity and potential failure removed. The problem on Windows is that it's not just a straight recompile as 64-bit...)

[caonoize]

> Potentiometer can't do? solve it, find a way, your the engineers, you've got the brains.

I'm suggesting you want something you have no conceivable use for. 14bit is in the noise for analog controls. We're talking about instruments not technical wankery. If you can't hear it when you listen or feel it when you play, you don't need it, otherwise it's "but this one goes to eleven."

As far as limits of software, this is no concern of mine. If I don't like it, I (re)write it. Thirty years in computing and a degree in math is good for something I guess. I do know that if I make a button and knob box, I won't be trying to generate more than 16 bit CCs controller side, and I won't expect to get more than 12 useful bits from a pot. Intermediate values are the host's problem.