KVR Audio

audiojet · Post by **audiojet** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:29 am

I want to love this program. When I first read the reviews last year I got pretty excited. It was called "The Acid killer!!” wow...Acid was my favorite program and was quite a powerful application. Top-notch artists were really recommending it. I downloaded the demo and spent hours playing with it. Am I doing something wrong hmmmm, all the samples sound like crap, even if pitch shifted +2 or 3. I must be overlooking something. I tweaked and tweaked.... nothing. . . still crap. I downloaded the newest demo yesterday to try again ... because...I really want to love it. So many cool ideas and features, but the audio stretching quality is cheese. It sucks. Oh well . . . Back to Acid.

Your thoughts?

bitcrusher · Post by **bitcrusher** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:36 am

Back in "the day" I was very unhappy with Acid but I loved the "audition any loop at my song tempo" capability. This was *such a big deal* at the time, every mac guy I knew was getting a PC for Acid/loops.

I also loved Acid's ability to make edits (time displacements) and then apply these edits to other loops.

In general, I wanted something more playable, to start loops playing/change loops/ and do manipulations, ideally in realtime.

This led me to co-develop Devine-Machine for something with more constructive and spontaneous control over loops.

Ableton Live surfaced during the 2-year development of Devine-Machine. At first I didn't like it, apart from the wonderful effects I saw no personal use.

I consider Live one of my 4 primary music apps now, and with them going in the host direction and Devine-Machine in the instrument direction, Live4/Dm2 is going to be all I may ever need

-Steve

lucille · Post by **lucille** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:42 am

ableton has several timestretch modes: you
may be attempting to repitch using "beats". this will
sound bad--download the manual and read the section
on timestretch algorithms.

eviltez · Post by **eviltez** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:52 am

Listen to Lucile

Using the diffrent modes will transform the sound like you wouldnt belieive.

Also have a look at "Legato". If you have 2 simular loops you can switch between them both like a crossfader.

Have a fiddle around with the clip automation too. Here is an example:

Take a drum loop.
Make a copy for each type of drum in the loop.
Use the clip volume to seperate out the diffrent drums.
Using the "key" assign the diffrent loops to diffrent keys (I like useing the PC keyboard because it has less travel so you get tighter jamming)
Press record
Jam

Try doing the above on any other music package and you'll see why Live is so popular

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:46 am

since you're very happy with acid and you've been just using the Live Demo, why not just stay happy with acid?

audiojet · Post by **audiojet** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:28 pm

...When I said I tweaked and I tweaked in Live, what I meant was I tried the different stretch formats.....texture, beat, tone and tweaked each till the morning light. I would take four samples and throw them into Live, Pitch one sample down a few...one up (you get the idea) And then throw the same four samples into Acid doing the same thing. There was such a differnce in sound. Acid was very clean and crisp and Live sounded like it was under water and dying of artifact disease. I love the way Live looks, feels, everything. But the main thing I really want to use it for (time-stretching)...it's unusable. I hear dance music samples sound alot better in Live (sample are very 1/4 patterned), but I use all kinds of samples. I searched the new feature list for the new Live 4 but seen no mention of timestretch improvement.

I will probably just wait for Acid 5 and give Devine machine a try.

DHR53 · Post by **DHR53** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:44 pm

...these posts are beginning to sound conspicuous... Loops do NOT sound any different in Live, Acid, Logic... or whatever...unusable by you, maybe!

dten · Post by **dten** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:28 pm

Without any warping or effects, they should sound the same. But once you start tweaking them, the quality of the algorithms will have an impact.

auxbuss · Post by **auxbuss** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:09 pm

bitcrusher wrote:I consider Live one of my 4 primary music apps now, and with them going in the host direction and Devine-Machine in the instrument direction, Live4/Dm2 is going to be all I may ever need

My Future Music review of Devine Machine said (in the hope that DM would become a Rewire client) "...and the ability to use DM in Ableton Live has my heart pounding". To sleep, perchance to dream

Ain't life just amazing these days

P.S. Can't wait for DM2, either

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:26 am

audiojet wrote:...When I said I tweaked and I tweaked in Live, what I meant was I tried the different stretch formats.....texture, beat, tone and tweaked each till the morning light. I would take four samples and throw them into Live, Pitch one sample down a few...one up (you get the idea) And then throw the same four samples into Acid doing the same thing. There was such a differnce in sound. Acid was very clean and crisp and Live sounded like it was under water and dying of artifact disease. I love the way Live looks, feels, everything. But the main thing I really want to use it for (time-stretching)...it's unusable. I hear dance music samples sound alot better in Live (sample are very 1/4 patterned), but I use all kinds of samples. I searched the new feature list for the new Live 4 but seen no mention of timestretch improvement.

I will probably just wait for Acid 5 and give Devine machine a try.

you should check out songcarvers stuff over at the ableton forum, definitely not your standard quart dance toonys, but anyway Like I said before it sounds
like you should be as enthusiastic about acid 5 as all of the other some odd billion Live users are about Live4. It's a shame that Live didn't work out for you but I look at this way it just goes to show how lucky all of us other Live users are to not have had the same problem as you, I have Acid pro 4 but have no use for it, but if acids quality is so much better than Live like you say then maybe I can find someone on kvr to sell it to cause I could sure use the money for the Live 4 upgrade around the corner.

DHR53 · Post by **DHR53** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:37 am

I just sold my Acid 4.0, and now he's selling it too! I always liked Acid, but I'm not really a loop guy myself... I like to... uh, make my own loops, so to speak... But I guess bottom line is, there are so may ways to use this stuff, it's what you become comfortable with... I've had the Live demo on my machine for years, but it was basically just like Acid to me... Now, well we'll see? I love Reason though, and it will be interesting to see if the new Live direction changes the direction of Reason??? Seems that it might be a good idea for Reason to go in the virtual instrument rack direction, and de-emphasize the sequencer portion?? Hmmm....

Website! · Post by **Website!** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:30 am

hey audiojet,
it's really strange that two of us have completely different views (and experiences) about Live and Acid.
i started to make music in Acid, then i discovered Live. i found that Live sounds a way better then Acid. and i make jazz music... i stretch horns, drums, pianos... you can tweak the sound really nice.
i also found Live's effects a way more better then Acid's. not to mention that i can use Live for - live!
however, what i found really good in Acid is the workflow and instant previewing of the loops in arrangements tempo. hope this will be improved in Live 4.
anyway, i'd suggest you to give it one more try...
w

Cabinfever · Post by **Cabinfever** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

i hear that both acidpro5 and ableton4 are demoed at summer namm at the end of july. i wait until then to decide whether to stay with acid or go to ableton4...

acidpro4 came out 2 years ago now and i hear from a beta person i should *wait until acidpro5 and you won't be dissapointed*. of course they can say nothing more so...

christianmusicmaker · Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:31 am

audiojet wrote:...When I said I tweaked and I tweaked in Live, what I meant was I tried the different stretch formats.....texture, beat, tone and tweaked each till the morning light. I would take four samples and throw them into Live, Pitch one sample down a few...one up (you get the idea) And then throw the same four samples into Acid doing the same thing. There was such a differnce in sound. Acid was very clean and crisp and Live sounded like it was under water and dying of artifact disease. I love the way Live looks, feels, everything. But the main thing I really want to use it for (time-stretching)...it's unusable. I hear dance music samples sound alot better in Live (sample are very 1/4 patterned), but I use all kinds of samples. I searched the new feature list for the new Live 4 but seen no mention of timestretch improvement.

I will probably just wait for Acid 5 and give Devine machine a try.

I use the Re pitch alogorithim and avoid the others. I can get fantastic results with Live 3 using this alogorithim which for me anyway is far better then the other 2 or 3 in Live.

I get no artifacts whatsoever using the Re ptich alogorithim.

I get plenty using some of the others.

wikter · Post by **wikter** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:58 am

Just nothing new to say, I don't like Live, but for those who need to render and find that is imposible to avoid those clicks, there's a trick...

You must insert an VST plugin to record signals (anarchyrecorder/channelgrabber/RecordIt...)
Adjust the input level to avoid clippings (play the louder section some times.
Start recording on recorder on "fileA" but don't play anything. While VST recorder is recording, go to File>Render and render the song to "FileB"... when it finishes rendering, delete Live rendered "fileB" and edit "fileA"...
"fileA" should not contain glitches.

Interesting, isn't it?
Freeware to patch Payware!!!

http://www.mvxsynths.tk
http://www.sickbeat.tk

About the pitchshifting modes... OK, just think about pitchshifters as they are effects, don't try to do something superspecial timestretching material to 2x or 0,5x... for that, try programming beats on a sequencer, at least, it's more creative.

. . . I want to love Ableton Live, BUT...