Mirror Vertically in Variations missing?

[tsmiguel]

I notice that in the Variations menu there is a Mirror Horizontally option ( usually called retrograde ).
I am missing the other traditional way of music phrase variation, the vertical mirror, traditionally called "melody inversion". So as an example if I play a melody like C D E F the melody inversion (vertical mirror) could be 2 ways:
- chromatic inversion: C Bb Ab G (the exact intervalic twist of the melody around the C axis)
- diatonic inversion : C B A G ( the relative diatonic twist of the melody around the C axis that uses the notes from the diatonic scale)
I think it would be usefull to have these 2 options included.

Tomi

[tolstoevsky]

Tomi, as far as I remember, this theme has been discussed earlier in this forum
I fully agree with you - such basic methods of phrase/melody inversion could be (or even have to be) implemented in RC. IMHO, it's rather easy to add at least "mirror vertically" inversion in variation editor. Or am I wrong, Attila?

[dsan@mail.com]

You guys are more advanced on this subject than I but I thought I would put this out there; by moving a phrase up or down the scale in the track RC automatically creates inversions and can give you every possible combination, depending on where you land the phrase on the scale.

I'm not sure if you speak of a different feature though.

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[tolstoevsky]

Dennis, it's not the same
see attached example for clarification of subject
Best regards, T.

[dsan@mail.com]

Yes, I better understand now, thank you T!

It seems RC is not giving the exampled inversions, rather transposing the phrase notes to stay within the key/chord as one moves them along (up or down).

Thank you for enlightening me T!

So this is an interesting theory and feature request. I like it

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[tsmiguel]

Thank you T for your graphic example.I didn't relized that it was requested earlier. As long as Atila is aware of it is ok;)
I think that the phrase inversion feature is a fundamental option for phrase variation in music and it must be part or RC. As a matter of fact it should be called Vertical mirror because this is what precisely does when aplied to a phrase...then having both the vertical and the horizontal mirrors (inversions) available you could use both togheter to achieve the "retrograde inversion" technique of your example.

Atila?

[tonedef71]

What you have asked about is similar to a feature I had asked for in the Feature Request thread -- I like to experiment with melodies inside of the Phrase Editor. I don't see my feature request listed in the Roadmap, so if you like what I had suggested, you can give it a strong vote of approval and perhaps Attila will add it to the Roadmap...

Support for performing permutation type transformations (Inversion, Retrogradation, and Retrograde Inversion) on a block of contiguous notes within the Phrase Editor

I know there exists a Phrase Variation called "Mirror Horizontally" (which is essentially the same effect as "Retrogradation"), and there has been a request for a "Mirror Vertically" Phrase Variation (which is essentially the same effect as "Inversion"). There could also be a Phrase Variation called "Mirror Both Horizontally and Vertically" (which is essentially the same effect as "Retrograde Inversion"). What I want to be able to do is perform this sort of phrase manipulation instantly within the Phrase Editor on all the notes in the phrase being edited or on just a contiguous selection of notes, and I want to be able to do it as often as I like with different combinations of transforms and note selections. You can gradually morph a phrase in interesting ways.

Here is a more detailed explanation of what I am thinking of. The user can highlight and select a contiguous block of notes to transform, so a partial block of notes can be selected for transformation anywhere in the phrase. [NOTE: Although it is doable to perform a transformation on selected notes that are cut off from other selected notes by notes that not part of the selection, I think it is probably more complex to implement, so that is why I stress that selection must be a contiguous, such that a bounding rectangle could be drawn around the entire selection of notes.] The note transformation happens "in place" within the imaginary rectangular boundary of the selected notes. In chromatic mode, this imaginary rectangular boundary does not shift at all after the transformation has been performed. In scalar mode, the automatic shift of the transformed notes to conform to the chosen scale (key and mode) could result in the imaginary rectangular boundary of the selected notes to change its size dimensions.

If no notes are highlighted as selected, then the note range to transform is the entire phrase.

Using push buttons to apply the transformations would be quicker, but I used drop-down menus in my mock-ups because I thought that they would require less screen real estate.

By the way, there are other types of phrase transformations that might be achievable within the Phrase Editor. Other transformations are mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_(music)

Mock-up screenshots:

[tsmiguel]

My suggestion was more related to the track editor, but your point of view About experiment with melodies inside of the Phrase Editor is also interesting.
My point of view has the advantage IMHO that applying variations to phrases in the track view is not destructive, so you can always unselect the variation feature and go back to the original phrase. From there also you can go inside the variated phrase editor and make out of it a new phrase.
In conclusion I think that both proposals are usefull so Let me change your proposal and add to it :

S[color=#808080]upport for performing permutation type transformations (Inversion, Retrogradation, and Retrograde Inversion) on a block of contiguous notes within the Phrase Editor as well as in the Variations parameters that can be applied to entire tracks[/color].
Best
Tomi

[como baila]

+1

Yes, I too have requested 'Mirror Vertically' and found it curious that we have horizontal but not vertical.

I like it as an option in the composition window phrase inspector in order to be able to use it non-destructively. Even if there were a 'Mirror Horizontally and Vertically,' i.e., retrograde inversion, variation, I'd probably continue to use separate horizontal and vertical ones, i.e., use two variations in combination instead of one. I think this would be more flexible.

I do like tonedef71's ideas for the phrase editor as well.

[musicdevelopments]

If a feature is requested by so many people, it becomes high priority.
You'll find 'Mirror Vertically' in the latest beta (beta11).
I'll give it a more sensible name in v3.0 when 'Mirror Horizontally' will be renamed as well.

It can do chromatic, diatonic and chord note (I don't know its proper name) inversions depending on the phrase.
The inversion type depends on the notes contained in the phrase:
- absolute notes: chromatic inversion
- scale-relative notes: diatonic inversion
- chord-relative notes: chord notes inversion

I tested all 3 methods. It does amazing things with staccato strings phrases...

Thank you all for your input!
Attila

[musicdevelopments]

I don't see my feature request listed in the Roadmap, so if you like what I had suggested, you can give it a strong vote of approval and perhaps Attila will add it to the Roadmap..

Hi Tony,

added to the roadmap... The phrase editor needs some improvements anyway.

Thanks for the screenshots!
Attila

[tonedef71]

If a feature is requested by so many people, it becomes high priority.
You'll find 'Mirror Vertically' in the latest beta (beta11).

It can do chromatic, diatonic and chord note (I don't know its proper name) inversions depending on the phrase.

Awesome!

[tonedef71]

I don't see my feature request listed in the Roadmap, so if you like what I had suggested, you can give it a strong vote of approval and perhaps Attila will add it to the Roadmap..

Hi Tony,

added to the roadmap... The phrase editor needs some improvements anyway.

Thanks for the screenshots!
Attila

Thank you so much!

I do spend a lot of time experimenting in the phrase editor to create new melodies. I wonder how many other folks are using Rapid Composer with a "Melody-first" compositional approach (as opposed to the more common "Harmony-first" approach)?

[yellukhan]

If a feature is requested by so many people, it becomes high priority.
You'll find 'Mirror Vertically' in the latest beta (beta11).
I'll give it a more sensible name in v3.0 when 'Mirror Horizontally' will be renamed as well.

It can do chromatic, diatonic and chord note (I don't know its proper name) inversions depending on the phrase.
The inversion type depends on the notes contained in the phrase:
- absolute notes: chromatic inversion
- scale-relative notes: diatonic inversion
- chord-relative notes: chord notes inversion

I tested all 3 methods. It does amazing things with staccato strings phrases...

Thank you all for your input!
Attila

Thank you so much! this is great addition!
fun with staccatos absolutely doubled

[como baila]

I don't see my feature request listed in the Roadmap, so if you like what I had suggested, you can give it a strong vote of approval and perhaps Attila will add it to the Roadmap..

Hi Tony,

added to the roadmap... The phrase editor needs some improvements anyway.

Thanks for the screenshots!
Attila

Thank you so much!

I do spend a lot of time experimenting in the phrase editor to create new melodies. I wonder how many other folks are using Rapid Composer with a "Melody-first" compositional approach (as opposed to the more common "Harmony-first" approach)?

Ahh ... things are getting really great!

Tonedef71, I love your ideas of applying variations to only selected notes in the phrase. This will be incredibly powerful.

I think you and I have similar ideas ... but I'd still prefer to do this in the phrase inspector grid (the little note grid window at the bottom of the phrase inspector) for one simple reason. If the phrase inspector had a 'switch' to choose between playback of the phrase in the track or the phrase in the inspector, then one could audition in context of other tracks as opposed to simply solo the phrase in preview.

Presumably a similar switch could be implemented in the phrase editor, but in the phrase inspector with all the check boxes to apply or disable different variations, it would be especially powerful. Plus, when Attila implements the scrolling back and forth between generated phrases in the inspector, that power will be multiplied.

Ultimately, any phrase created in the inspector that one simply must have for future use is already easily saved from the phrase inspector itself.