HELP - DIY Acoustics + ROOM arrangement - Limited OPTIONS

[zappe187]

HEY

Long story short.
Need SOME HELP. I'm clueless !!!


I need to DIY some acoustic Panels. The budget is somehow unlimited, but the options for fiber glass, glasswool, rockwool are limited here ( ROMANIA ) - Or not I want to get the best i can from this room, the best from the DIY panels, and i think a big role will be the will be played by the wool or fiber...

I need to do this thing right from the first place...
I already found tons of designs, the wood is cheap, fabric also...



This is my ROOM scheme NOW ( Pic no.1 ) :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lozuo26akuao4 ... o%20v1.jpg

This is how i want to arrange everything in the next days (so i can start DIY my acoustic panels) ( Pic no.2 ) :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xgn5xik3nntx5 ... o%20v2.jpg


Room is 400 cm x 250 cm x 260 cm (length x width x height)

• The ROOM/STUDIO will be used mainly for producing electronic music / edm and other in the future. Also MIXING and in the future mastering.

Unfortunately i have to keep in this room all the boxes from all the gear (but i will better arrange them in a few days )
+ i also can't install a door to this room... (see pic no.1)
+ if i put the desk as in pic no.2 , i can't install bass traps in the other side of the room , probably only 1 panel or 2 ( if i need )

I already made a big research 3-4 full days, but i always get tired, and it's a never ending searching loop


SO

The PLAN is simple :

1. i will / need to arrange everything as in pic no.2 , as i think it's the best i can get from this space.

2. i want / need to build 9 panels ( 2 bass traps , 3 absorbers in front of the desk , 4 absorbers , 2 on each side of the wall on the first first reflection points ) .
The design will be something like this :

3. BEFORE DIY i need to buy , either mineral wool , rock wool OR fiberglass , 50 or 100mm

4. i plan / but not necessary to cover more wall with some of these :
the t.akustik HiLo-P80 - Thomann UK
the t.akustik HiLo-N25 - Thomann UK
EQ Acoustics Classic Wedge Tiles 30 grey - Thomann UK

5. ?! ?!





QUESTIONS :

1. Better/Any suggestions to the arrangement of the room/desk etc ?! i am open to ideas.

2. Not sure if i need more (or what i need ) , if i need absorbers , diffusers or bass traps ?! i am opened to suggestions.

3. What's the best either mineral wool , rock wool OR fiberglass , 50 or 100mm ???

4. HERE IN ROMANIA i found only products from ISOVER, ROCKWOOL and Knauf (but not all the models).

These are the models/products i've found (please just check the names, the info is vague) :

a. Basically, everything from ROCKWOOL : Căutare - rockwool
As i read/heard, some say AIRROCK series especially HD are good, but not sure.

b. Some from Knauf
Vata minerala de sticla pentru acoperisuri inclinate KNAUF INSULATION

c. Some from Knauf + Isover
Vata de sticla

d. Some other from Isover
Bricostore - Totul pentru casa si gradina
Dedeman Vata minerala - Termoizolatii - Constructii - Dedicat planurilor tale

Heard good things about Isover fiberglass UNIROLL PLUS , but still not sure!!!

I did read this : http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm , but can't find any of those in my country...


I would like the ones that i will pick/buy to compete with the OC 703 or 705 , ROXUL , and so on, on the quality if possible or as close as possible!!!

Which one is the best i can buy !? , do i need 50mm , 100mm, or 2x 50 mm !?


5.1 Can you suggest the best design for panels ? and for bass traps too!?
5.2 How much air-grip do i need between panels and the wall.
5.3 The Bass traps , need to be thicker than the other panels ? double ? or it's not necessary !?


6.1 As i said before in the "PLAN" , no.4 ... do i need , it's necessary to cover more wall with some of those ? will make a difference, beside the cool design !?
6.2 I also planned but not sure if it's a good idea to put acoustic foam panels over the DIY panels... ?! or should i hang it as it is and cover more space ?



7. Probably a 2 m height bookshelf will be placed as in pic no 2, and serve as an diffuser ? It's necessary / a good idea !?


8. Did i misses something regarding room treatment, and the quality build of the panels ?


Probably this is it for the moment... i think Acoustics + konnekt 6 soundcard + equator d5 speakers + atm50 headphones will be enough for the next period.
The next step will be a rme fireface and a dac , in the next 1 year... but that's another story!


Any other help will be appreciated!

Thanks for your interest in helping me, and for reading my long POST!!!

All the best!

[zappe187]

Somebody just suggested that for my circumstances,my priorities have to be:

1, Arrange Kit.
2, Properly setup kit.
3, Arrange furniture/boxes.
4, Do room analysis (REQ).
5, Adjust 1 & 3 if 4 reveals anything terrible and go back to step 4
6, Now, and only now, start planning treatment.

--

Yes indeed, i will place everything in the next 2 days... arrange the desk and the other equipment + furniture and boxes...
Also i will try to do room analysis (REQ).
I only have shure sm57, that will be OK!?
Can you please point me to a thread, post, about how to proper do a REQ?


Also , yes, i will let 30 cm room for the monitors/speakers..

[zappe187]

As i made a lot of research, i saw that bedroom studios/ production studios/mastering studios have mixed panels/diffusers, traps, and so on... it's not really a pattern to follow, or if it's something standard
I want to make simple acoustic panels and bass traps (double thickness) and i want to make 9-10 and arrange like this : http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06 ... ts01.l.jpg
But i can't put all the 5 panels on the back of the room... maybe 1 or 2 max

I have a electronic music studio. I have to arrange the desk and the furniture and some empty boxes that can't leave the room, and i need to make the best of my room....


The room is only 4m x 2.5m x 2.6m , but i think it's enough... I use Equator D5 monitors and Behringer Truth B3030A . I got some bad mixes on both, i had OK mixes, but more than 60-70% i get really great results even before mastering... (without any treatment ... and i have to mention i don't have a DOOR in my room )
Will a REQ test tell me exactly the problems in my room ?! and can this influence the DIY of my acoustic panels ?!
I mean can tell me where to focus, and what kind of traps do i need ...
Obviously i will need the standard treatment i plan, maybe the REQ will tell me (after the treatment) that i need to build more and cover more space... or maybe i will need diffusers and things like that... or what's the problem if it's still there...

I'm sure the basic treatment will solve some problems, and arranging the desk/furniture better, and giving 30-50 cm space for the speakers to breath.... also a better position to listen will change the results...



MY Biggest DILEMMA was not probably the arrangement of the room which is somehow standard and limited by the space, neither THE number of panels or arrangement of these..., because i will do the 9-10, probably 50mm the basic ones and 100mm the basstraps, or make them all 100.. and the arrangement is standard too...

... but THE kind of material i should use/buy for the traps/panels... because i don't have too many options...



I can buy some ISOVER, ROCKWOOL or Knauf... but after reading more and more, and researching acoustic forums, knauf universal slab made with ecose are the best... i don't understand to well the term universal slab, but to narrow everything down, here are the only options i have when it comes buying Knauf products ...




We have:
- Knauf TP 112 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - slab
- Knauf TI 140 U (unifi T 039) with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf TI 135 U (unifi T 035) with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 044 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 042 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 040 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll
- Knauf classic 032 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass) - roll

KNAUF Rockwool KRSK 50 or 100 MM - slab (40kg/m3)
KNAUF Rockwool KRS - 50 MM - slab (30kg/m3)
KNAUF Rockwool EKOBOARD M with ECOSE 5 100/4,8 M2 - slab
KNAUF INSULATION Rockwool (STANDARD) with ECOSE (50mm) - roll
KNAUF TP 116 M (mineral fiber glass ) - 50mm or 100mm - SLAB
KNAUF TP 115 with ECOSE (mineral fiber glass ) - 50mm or 100MM - SLAB

KNAUF Rockwool FKD s or S , 100mm or 60mm - SLAB
KNAUF Rockwool DDP RT 100mm - SLAB




Any ideas ?! Which one can compete with OC 703 or 705 ? or is closer?!

Everything will be much clear after we decide wich one is the best to BUY!



Thanks again!!!

[zappe187]

This makes sense...

I will do my homework here:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/educational-videos/
http://www.gikacoustics.com/articles/

HERE
http://realtraps.com/howto.htm
http://realtraps.com/info.htm

AND HERE
http://homerecording.com/bbs/general-di ... cs-365127/

Meanwhile i will arrange my room and do some EQ tests
Unfortunately i have only 1 option to arrange everything and i can't use the sofa as a absorber on the back wall, because somehow it will block the DOOR (even if i don't have one . ALSO the other furniture can't leave the room, and the empty boxes also, so i have to stick with them and arrange them as better as i can... under the desk or something...

At the end i will follow a project like this probably:
http://www.aaronbrownsound.com/571/

I finally found Knauf ECOSE TP 440 here, and i guess is more than enough for what i have to do...

I guess this is it...

I need to stick to this plan and see how it works. I don't doubt that i can't fix all the problems, but i'm sure it will make a big difference...


I'll be glad to receive any other pointers/tips/tricks/help if someone thinks i still need / or forgot something...


I will post updates soon as i advance further!

All the best.

Thanks again!

[Compyfox]

Man... this is a lot of text you wrote right there.

Yes, you do have limited options, but no, that doesn't mean that you're stuck.

Your main problem will be bass issues in such a small room. Having worked in those, I can totally relate. So your biggest concern should be bass trapping on the corners. Your next concern could then be the early reflection points to left/right of your rig and on top. Behind your PC could result in bass trapping and frequency reflection. Here, measurements could help.


You already found some great sources - especially GIK Acoustics. Also take note of their article regarding rooms and placements.

GIK Acoustics does use KNAUF material. Any rockwool at 10kpa should really work, though material with less flow resistance is better for lowend treatment, while higher resistance is better for mids and higher frequencies. Slabs are ideal, rolls are pretty much unusable unless you pack them into a wooden frame and you get them to "stiff up".

Take note of this tool here:
http://www.acousticmodelling.com/ (use the first or the last option)


I built several absorbers out of 7kPa Rockwool (Sonorock). 8cm thick ones (walls), 10cm thick ones (corner traps, diagionally mounted), 4-5cm thick ones (cloud), a 14cm thick one (GOBO) and I'm currently working on a monster trap for behind my PC (24cm thick in a 30cm frame). My rooms drastically improved from flat and reflecting surfaces (laminate, hard walls) to a fairly balanced sound (some strategically placed carpet, corner traps, etc).

Plenty of pictures can be found all over the net. Especially on Gearslutz.

And a couple of pictures from my GOBO build here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1#p5492861

You can also see my "corner absorber" builds in the background they're the same for the walls as well.



Regarding REW (Room EQ Wizard):
Measure at several places in your room, then compare the analysis. A manual how to set that up can be found on GIK acoustics. You should look that the reverb time of your room is being trimmed down, and that you get a fairly flat frequency response to begin with - before you do ANY treatment to your speakers (with EQ's or room correction software).

It's always:
Placement (furniture) -> Absorber treatment and replacing things -> checking frequency response -> no further treatment possible / speaker treatment

If you see huge dips in your frequency plot, you have room nodes - these places need to be treated. If you see huge peaks on your plot, you have standing waves. Again, this place needs to be treated. If they can't be treated, chances are that other things influence that plot at that position. So replace things (if possible!).


There is no set rule how to do things. Just measure what's going on, place something there. Don't overdo things. Else you end up in a totally dead sounding room.



Oh and... hands off of acoustic foam. That's only good for frequencies above 1kHz IMO. Personally I only use foam for small mic shields these days. I recently had to clean a planned rec room (for a youth club studio) of foam (glued to the wall), since it caused breathing issues and coughing for at least he next hour.

Foam is also considerably more(!) expensive for proper treatment than rockwool (and most companies can't even tell you the flow resistance in kPa - it's mostly below! 6kPa!!!). But sometimes the right thing for stylish corner traps (remember the calculator comment I posted above)


Good luck.

[zappe187]

HEY Compyfox, thanks for your great reply...

seams like i have a lot of work to do but not before reading all the resources...

Placement (furniture) -> checking frequency response -> Absorber treatment and replacing things -> checking frequency response -> no further treatment possible / speaker arrangement/treatment

SO in the next days i will move things and see how i can get the best position for everything...

It might be possible to take out from the room all the empty boxes and a little book shelf (35cm x 35cm x 2m)

The challenge now is to make the TESTS
I will probably need some help interpreting the results of the test...

The DIY panels schemes/models or the finding of all the materials has been already done...


I will post further updates...

Thank you!

Thanks again everyone!