Great idea ... acting against the copyright-law and then being sued for millions and billions ...Compyfox wrote:YT is blaming GEMA for "way too high fees", yet instead of saying "you know what... funk that - we play the videos anyway", ...
GEMA not at fault for Youtube video blocking (Germany related)
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- KVRAF
- 1724 posts since 10 Feb, 2008 from Berlin, Germany
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Nokenoku wrote:Youtube has no time to check every single artist they discover, so they rather block than being sued afterwards.
.Compyfox wrote:YT is blaming GEMA for "way too high fees", yet instead of saying "you know what... funk that - we play the videos anyway"
And that's why they won't "play the videos anyway". To prevent being sued.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Well, looking how "large" Google actually is... 
And it's only blocked in certain countries. NOT outside of Germany.
The thing that definitely grinds my gears, is not only the GEMA, but also the "fair use" in Germany.
According to copyright laws, there is no fair use in Germany. And using copyrighted content for "news" and "teaching purposes" is very strict (and still need to be cleared first).
Yet I found yet another German, and if I saw that right even Berlin related YT channel, that uses both copyrighted music and image content without visable clearance other than a copyright footer in the screen. Not even in imprint was given.
That's it - I'm contacting my media related lawer again. I want to at least get this(!) one being cleared and out of my system.
Regarding GEMA and YouTube...
Like I said (several times) - several sides to the medal. We didn't see the whole picture, only aspects of it. One side says so, the other says so. Fact is, that the state court said "Youtube, you're not allowed to pull these information cards - at least not in this form".
Another fact is, that YT should get in touch with the GEMA, and both should find a middle way (like I said: welcome to the stone age of media/royalties). Here, the C3S could work as mediator - but unfortunately they're still at their beginning (though I'm curious how this will pan out as soon as they are serious players as well).
Another fact is, that both YT and VIMEO are US based companies - and they often don't give a damn, since other "laws apply" (US laws).
I think, would both video platforms be based on German ground, rather than having German divisions (at most) - things would look at bit different, a tad more strict, etc. But maybe also way more cleared.
Regarding Zircon:
His CD's are not officially sold in Germany. His first CDs were sold through CDbaby (now he's distributing through several channels, including iTunes). CDBaby is also US bound, and IIRC, he's not a member of the IRAA (zircon can get more in depth on that himself - It's been a while since I've contacted him about that).
Else, I have to agree that the GEMA pretty much takes everything "music related" in Germany, and assumes distribution rights. Even if you're not a member.
The negative side effect (at least to my understanding) - if you're not a member (for example if you can't handle the fees), and you sell stuff (and may it only be a small release) - you won't see a dime for replays. That in itself is a flawed system.
And it's only blocked in certain countries. NOT outside of Germany.
The thing that definitely grinds my gears, is not only the GEMA, but also the "fair use" in Germany.
According to copyright laws, there is no fair use in Germany. And using copyrighted content for "news" and "teaching purposes" is very strict (and still need to be cleared first).
Yet I found yet another German, and if I saw that right even Berlin related YT channel, that uses both copyrighted music and image content without visable clearance other than a copyright footer in the screen. Not even in imprint was given.
That's it - I'm contacting my media related lawer again. I want to at least get this(!) one being cleared and out of my system.
Regarding GEMA and YouTube...
Like I said (several times) - several sides to the medal. We didn't see the whole picture, only aspects of it. One side says so, the other says so. Fact is, that the state court said "Youtube, you're not allowed to pull these information cards - at least not in this form".
Another fact is, that YT should get in touch with the GEMA, and both should find a middle way (like I said: welcome to the stone age of media/royalties). Here, the C3S could work as mediator - but unfortunately they're still at their beginning (though I'm curious how this will pan out as soon as they are serious players as well).
Another fact is, that both YT and VIMEO are US based companies - and they often don't give a damn, since other "laws apply" (US laws).
I think, would both video platforms be based on German ground, rather than having German divisions (at most) - things would look at bit different, a tad more strict, etc. But maybe also way more cleared.
Regarding Zircon:
His CD's are not officially sold in Germany. His first CDs were sold through CDbaby (now he's distributing through several channels, including iTunes). CDBaby is also US bound, and IIRC, he's not a member of the IRAA (zircon can get more in depth on that himself - It's been a while since I've contacted him about that).
Else, I have to agree that the GEMA pretty much takes everything "music related" in Germany, and assumes distribution rights. Even if you're not a member.
The negative side effect (at least to my understanding) - if you're not a member (for example if you can't handle the fees), and you sell stuff (and may it only be a small release) - you won't see a dime for replays. That in itself is a flawed system.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
But what makes me MOST angry is that you cannot even found a small club nowadays without paying huge amounts of money to the GEMA.
GEMA is a killer for small clubs. Only the bigger clubs with lots of clubbers will survive, and even they're thinking about raising the prices because of the GEMA fees.
It's impossible to start a small club nowadays if you're not Richi Rich...
GEMA is a killer for small clubs. Only the bigger clubs with lots of clubbers will survive, and even they're thinking about raising the prices because of the GEMA fees.
It's impossible to start a small club nowadays if you're not Richi Rich...
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- KVRAF
- 1724 posts since 10 Feb, 2008 from Berlin, Germany
We also have something called "Zitatrecht " ... but I guess that's rather strict as well.Compyfox wrote:According to copyright laws, there is no fair use in Germany. And using copyrighted content for "news" and "teaching purposes" is very strict (and still need to be cleared first).
I also have hopes in C3S, but we will see, if this actually gets somewhere ...
In every case, this whole "copyright law / GEMA / fair use / Youtube / etc."-thing could use a lot of rework.
It's complicated, unfair and annoying. Sometimes I have the impression, that because this is not moving forward everyone is a looser here at the moment.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Pretty rather extremely strict...Nokenoku wrote:We also have something called "Zitatrecht " ... but I guess that's rather strict as well.Compyfox wrote:According to copyright laws, there is no fair use in Germany. And using copyrighted content for "news" and "teaching purposes" is very strict (and still need to be cleared first).
http://www1.wdr.de/themen/archiv/sp_urh ... in100.html
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Well - at least if we have a look on "Germany".
In the rest of the world, there is not such a huge issue. Or, people don't give a funk about it (in the US, there is the "Fair Use" clause existing).
Unfortunately, the "Zitatrecht" (citation rights?) is also very strict. Or better said, I haven't found anything useful. And I would not do a citation per se, I'd do an analysis of audio files. Unless I have permission from he creators to even mix that as part of a video series.
All this (with the news post from two days past) is a massive turnoff for people like me, that would love to create a video series. And don't let me get started on mass sending of cease-and-desist letters with sometimes fictional reasons.
Though after this law sentence, I really hope that at least the "blocked due to possible GEMA content" warning will vanish in Germany. This is really annoying.
In the rest of the world, there is not such a huge issue. Or, people don't give a funk about it (in the US, there is the "Fair Use" clause existing).
Unfortunately, the "Zitatrecht" (citation rights?) is also very strict. Or better said, I haven't found anything useful. And I would not do a citation per se, I'd do an analysis of audio files. Unless I have permission from he creators to even mix that as part of a video series.
All this (with the news post from two days past) is a massive turnoff for people like me, that would love to create a video series. And don't let me get started on mass sending of cease-and-desist letters with sometimes fictional reasons.
Though after this law sentence, I really hope that at least the "blocked due to possible GEMA content" warning will vanish in Germany. This is really annoying.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I thought about this last night... and actually YT doesn't act against copyright law - if we talk about official channels from the musicians, labels, content providers that have clearance from the original creators, etc.Nokenoku wrote:Great idea ... acting against the copyright-law and then being sued for millions and billions ...
YT then "assumes" that this material might hold content, that has yet to be cleared by the local collecting society. Even if the rights are already "cleared". Though since there are no reports for other countries than Germany, we see this particular warning sign.
If there are users that think they can repost stuff on a "fair use" clause and make money out of it/repost to get famous quickly (even if their country doesn't have anything like that) - that's a different issue.
So...
IMO YT is not allowed to do so like they currently do in Germany. Because up until this day, there seems to be no way for setting a checkmark on this system, saying "this content is cleared" or "I'm no GEMA member" - if the content is cleared (again: labels, musicians themselves, content creators with cleared/paid licenses or their own material, etc).
The GEMA on the other hand only tries to get money for their members, which they can then forward to their clients. Whether or not this fee, or the height on the fee is adjusted, lies on a complete different ballpark. Same with "we ask for fees no matter what type of video" - and non GEMA members don't actually benefit from that (along with the debate for fees for CDs, Tapes, HDDs, etc).
Fact is that in this particular case (warning/blocked signs), YT is in the wrong.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
Did you read all contracts between Youtube and GEMA that you are so sure only Youtube were wrong?
Youtube won't remove the blocking only to be sued by the GEMA...
Youtube won't remove the blocking only to be sued by the GEMA...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
That is not the point actually.
The point is (from the sentence, see first post), that YT wasn't actually allowed to do so (blocking) in the first place. Especially not if channels(!) and licenses on that behalf are cleared. Which lied (so far) solely in the hands of the artist in question. And at this point, if it's a large channel like VEVO, Warner, Nuklear Blast, Sony, etc... we can assume that they already PAID the GEMA in advance.
YT however ignores that and blocks videos with musical content - no matter if the musician is a member of the GEMA or not (again the example with user zircon, to a certain extend also Daniel James who is famous for his orchestra scores, and I also saw German musicians that were not GEMA members being blocked - and it was not a cover of anything). And this is a bit contradicting IMO.
So this is very thin ice material we're talking about.
BTW:
Regarding §51 Quotes in terms of the copyright law...
http://dejure.org/gesetze/UrhG/51.html
I am in touch with my main media related lawer regarding this, and I also contacted a couple of other law related channels. I hope to get a result in the next couple of weeks. And I also hope the GEMA is contacting me again. So far, the Berlin division seems to be "on vacation", and the HQ didn't get back at me yet.
The point is (from the sentence, see first post), that YT wasn't actually allowed to do so (blocking) in the first place. Especially not if channels(!) and licenses on that behalf are cleared. Which lied (so far) solely in the hands of the artist in question. And at this point, if it's a large channel like VEVO, Warner, Nuklear Blast, Sony, etc... we can assume that they already PAID the GEMA in advance.
YT however ignores that and blocks videos with musical content - no matter if the musician is a member of the GEMA or not (again the example with user zircon, to a certain extend also Daniel James who is famous for his orchestra scores, and I also saw German musicians that were not GEMA members being blocked - and it was not a cover of anything). And this is a bit contradicting IMO.
So this is very thin ice material we're talking about.
BTW:
Regarding §51 Quotes in terms of the copyright law...
http://dejure.org/gesetze/UrhG/51.html
I am in touch with my main media related lawer regarding this, and I also contacted a couple of other law related channels. I hope to get a result in the next couple of weeks. And I also hope the GEMA is contacting me again. So far, the Berlin division seems to be "on vacation", and the HQ didn't get back at me yet.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
The Youtube staff might simply not have enough time to clear every single video manually, so they have automated/simplified the process. They won't hire more lawyers just because of the GEMA...
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- addled muppet weed
- 111343 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
so youre paying out money for this? has your copyright been infringed upon or are you just pissed off cos you cant watch beyonce shake her ass?Compyfox wrote:
I am in touch with my main media related lawer regarding this,
i dont get the point here sorry.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
He wants to make a video tutorial series about mixing and mastering with snippets of commercial music and he don't want to get in trouble with German copyright...vurt wrote:so youre paying out money for this? has your copyright been infringed upon or are you just pissed off cos you cant watch beyonce shake her ass?Compyfox wrote:I am in touch with my main media related lawer regarding this,
i dont get the point here sorry.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Exactly that - thanks Tricky-Loops.
This got brought up in my personal views on this whole issue (GEMA, YT, etc) on page one. I just want to be on the save side. And yes, knowing a lawer does help in such occasions.
This got brought up in my personal views on this whole issue (GEMA, YT, etc) on page one. I just want to be on the save side. And yes, knowing a lawer does help in such occasions.
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- Banned
- 10196 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head
But what about all these German guys who make video tutorials about imitating or recreating lead sounds of famous tunes, for example of Calvin Harris songs? Do they all get problems with GEMA, too? 