KVR Audio

gassle · Post by **gassle** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:11 am

I wonder if it is illegal to distribute a drum sample, lets say, you mixed two snare bits from a PCM synth then processed it with distortion etc... Or loop made with a commercial one-hit sample library and processed someway...

I know that the audio recordings of romplers are copyrighted but what if you process them? (slightly or extensively)

-G

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:45 am

My question is why even flirt with the possibility and just grab a mic and make your own sounds?

Devon

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:46 am

I actually looked into this in quite some detail last year. Both Roland and Korg to me that there was no problem in sampling and redistributing samples made with their pcm synths. However, this was under the condition that the sounds were original and not from exsisting presets. They also made it very clear that the original pcm's themselves were not to be sampled and used as the sound source for a derivative product. In the case of drums, its unlikely that you can create any kind of new sound using the kits, so it might be worth you contacting the appropriate manufacturer for confirmation. If you plan to use them to make loops with further processing, then this would probably help your cause. Funnily enough, the only doubt that was raised in my mind with regard to sampling pcm synths, was by another sample developer! Whether this was the guys genuine thoughts I dont know, cuz it did strike me a little as if he had his own interests at heart. Eitherway, Im always grateful for any info people can give me, but in this case i chose to go with the offical representatives of the relevant companies.

You are not legally allowed to use material from sample CD's to create derivative products. It is usually stated quite clearly in the license that it is forbided to use the samples in anyway other than in music compositions. This is not to say you cant though! If you find a 909 kick you like on a CD, then layer and process to create a new sound, in my opinion that is yours. This is even more so if you plan to use your sounds to create original loops. The fact is that the majority of these sample CD's were created by sampling old records, so i dont have any great moral dilema using them as source material. Ofcourse, it wouldnt pay you to take the piss cuz you could land yourself in some seriously hot water. I think you just have to use your noggin a bit to see which samples are cool to use and which are not.

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:56 am

DevonB wrote:My question is why even flirt with the possibility and just grab a mic and make your own sounds?

Devon

I think that is a perfectly valid point with most types of stuff, but i also think there are some sounds which require source material that you really cant record practically. For example, lets say you're making house loops... you really need some of those dirty, noisy breaks to sample in order to get the right basis sounds. You may then layer and process these sounds with original sounds to get the results you want. In cases like this you simply cant just grab an sm57 and record suitable source material. Eitherway, if refuse to believe that the thousands of house loop CD's there are floating about where all the product of long studio sessions recreating vintage type breaks just some stuff to sample.

gassle · Post by **gassle** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:14 am

DevonB wrote:My question is why even flirt with the possibility and just grab a mic and make your own sounds?

Devon

Considering that I don't have much more than some spoons, glasses, cardboards, milkboxes, toy xylophone etc. around and I want this or that specific pre-processed sound, not some rock drums.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:18 am

tee boy wrote:
DevonB wrote:My question is why even flirt with the possibility and just grab a mic and make your own sounds?

Devon
I think that is a perfectly valid point with most types of stuff, but i also think there are some sounds which require source material that you really cant record practically.

We're still coming back to the point of distributing the samples though. If you want to make your own music for your own enjoyment or profit, then there is no issue. If you wish to make a profit on the other hand from making your own sounds that's NOT in a musical context, and you're not willing to go the extra mile, and instead ride on the coattails of someone else's success only when you full well know it's not legal...? Do I even need to say it?

Eitherway, if refuse to believe that the thousands of house loop CD's there are floating about where all the product of long studio sessions recreating vintage type breaks just some stuff to sample.

Could you reword that sentence? I'm not following?

Devon

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:20 am

gassle wrote:
DevonB wrote:My question is why even flirt with the possibility and just grab a mic and make your own sounds?

Devon
Considering that I don't have much more than some spoons, glasses, cardboards, milkboxes, toy xylophone etc. around and I want this or that specific pre-processed sound, not some rock drums.

For your own music? It's not an issue. If you're wanting to distribute the sounds for others to use for profit or not, that's where the issue lies. If you want to make money, you got to spend money. Ripping off someone else's hard work I just don't see as kosher.

Devon

gassle · Post by **gassle** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:21 am

tee boy wrote:I actually looked into this in quite some detail last year. Both Roland and Korg to me that there was no problem in sampling and redistributing samples made with their pcm synths. However, this was under the condition that the sounds were original and not from exsisting presets. They also made it very clear that the original pcm's themselves were not to be sampled and used as the sound source for a derivative product. In the case of drums, its unlikely that you can create any kind of new sound using the kits, so it might be worth you contacting the appropriate manufacturer for confirmation. If you plan to use them to make loops with further processing, then this would probably help your cause. Funnily enough, the only doubt that was raised in my mind with regard to sampling pcm synths, was by another sample developer! Whether this was the guys genuine thoughts I dont know, cuz it did strike me a little as if he had his own interests at heart. Eitherway, Im always grateful for any info people can give me, but in this case i chose to go with the offical representatives of the relevant companies.

You are not legally allowed to use material from sample CD's to create derivative products. It is usually stated quite clearly in the license that it is forbided to use the samples in anyway other than in music compositions. This is not to say you cant though! If you find a 909 kick you like on a CD, then layer and process to create a new sound, in my opinion that is yours. This is even more so if you plan to use your sounds to create original loops. The fact is that the majority of these sample CD's were created by sampling old records, so i dont have any great moral dilema using them as source material. Ofcourse, it wouldnt pay you to take the piss cuz you could land yourself in some seriously hot water. I think you just have to use your noggin a bit to see which samples are cool to use and which are not.

Thanks Tee Boy for the extensive reply! I actually don't think of establishing an other sound/loop company and earn money, but wonder about the theory if oneday I like to share some on the net.

G

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:27 am

Wow, now that i read it back that is one hell of a sentance! Let me take a deep breath and attempt a re-word. Basically what i was getting at was that nobody making house loops touches a microphone. I mean, to record all the source material from scratch would mean renting a pretty well equiped studio for a fair amount of time, not to mention an engineer with the skills to get that old groove type sound. Then their is the drummers, percussionist's to pay on top. The point is that nobody making these type of CD's goes to these kind of lengths. They sample their source material off vinyl, simples as that. I have great respect the people who make CD's like Retrofunk and Planet of the Breaks etc, cuz you know the measures they are taking to ensure it is all orginal stuff. This stuff i would never sample illegally purely out of respect.

However, i have no intention of releasing a house loops CD anyway so its all academic for me. I just like to think that the sounds I spend loads of time making are all my own, to do with what i please. Lets say i make 20 tracks, then i empty out my audio folder and realise I have loads of great sounds and stuff, it would be nice to know I could release that without having to worry about where it came from. I suppose what it really comes down to is how much effort you put into generating sounds. For me, this is takes up as much time (if not more) than i put into writing music. And with that in mind, I like to be sure that my sounds are mine.

gassle · Post by **gassle** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:35 am

I actually work for one of the companies you mentioned...

What I really wonder is that what happens if you distort, flange, compress and EQ a single hit and then share it. This is complete theory. No need to worry.

-G

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:52 am

You're right it is all theory, but lets face it what we're talking about is who owns our sounds. An issue Im sure must be close to the heart of any hard working musician, pro or otherwise. And thinking about it in terms of 'what you'd get away with' is far from an ideal scenerio. Unfortunately it seems to be the only way right now. When you use a sample clearly from a CD, then i dont think there is any debate over who owns it. But when you realise that people are selling you samples (along with brutally strict licenses) that they themselves created illegally, it kind of leaves you feeling a little shafted! I cant help but think that if im going to use illegal samples, i shouldnt be having to pay for them too. I may as well just make them my f**king self!

gassle · Post by **gassle** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:06 am

Yeah that's about the ethic behind it... But what is legal and illegal is another point. Or maybe how long a sound remains as the sound of the owner while one start processing and change it into something else... Hard to answer. When you flange it? When you distort it? When you vocode it?... Lets sey it again that I don't care about making money, that's a question I always have in my mind.

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:30 am

I think it also depends very much on the original intention of the sample. For example, I often use orchestral percussion samples as the basis for textural type stuff - I might take a gong or chime hit, process it with a nice long hall IR, then create a loop at the very end of the tale. I'll then pitch this loop down considerably, and normalise. At this point i might try to identify the pitch of the sound by checking for any dominant formants. I might then go on to layer this semi pitched sound onto a pitched drone sound etc. Im sure you see where im going with this. The resulting sound, no matter how far derived from the original recording is still a violation of copyright. If i released it for other people to use in their music i would be liable for legal action. However, I feel no moral responsiblity, since the original percussion sample has been used to such a small degree and so far out of its original context. I guess this is just how the law works, but i think its wrong because it really holds the art back. Obviously, Im not going to hire out a top studio and fill it with an orchestra. I cant afford that, and therefore i have to use samples. But as a result of the law, Im not allowed to share my work with other people. Lets say for example that Eric Persing couldnt afford to record the source material for 'Distorted Reality 1'. Im sure you'll agree that if that CD had never been released, certain types of music would not be what they are today.

I guess what i'm really saying underneath all this waffle, is that this is an art which is being controlled to much by money men. I think there must be so much potential genius out there which never comes to light, because they couldnt afford to make it happen. A little OT, but definately food for thought.

DevonB · Post by **DevonB** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:33 am

tee boy wrote:I guess what i'm really saying underneath all this waffle, is that this is an art which is being controlled to much by money men. I think there must be so much potential genius out there which never comes to light, because they couldnt afford to make it happen. A little OT, but definately food for thought.

And my point which I'll make short and sweet is, if you spent years building your experience, reputation, and business just to have someone come in behind and use your product for financial gain in the same field, you'd probably have a different view point. Just because you personally can't afford to do what someone else DID afford to do doesn't give you (the 'collective' you, I'm talking) the right to rip off that work.

Devon

gassle · Post by **gassle** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:38 am

tee boy wrote:I think it also depends very much on the original intention of the sample. For example, I often use orchestral percussion samples as the basis for textural type stuff - I might take a gong or chime hit, process it with a nice long hall IR, then create a loop at the very end of the tale. I'll then pitch this loop down considerably, and normalise. At this point i might try to identify the pitch of the sound by checking for any dominant formants. I might then go on to layer this semi pitched sound onto a pitched drone sound etc. Im sure you see where im going with this. The resulting sound, no matter how far derived from the original recording is still a violation of copyright.

I really wonder sound designers' point of view here.

-G

Copyright question