Do you REALLY hate tarnce/tracne?

[ZenPunkHippy]

I disagree, not that it isn't pure chance, but that, based on those two quotes, that one can reasonably apply a probability to the outcome. Not that I think that it matters in any case.

Yes, you busted me trying to get more milage out of it than was warranted.

It did help to illustrate that trance producers are not just mindless mouse jockeys - which some people still have trouble understanding, or refuse to accept simply because they don't like it

Peace,
Andy.

[trimph1]

We actually understand this much better than the crappy example that you posted demonstrates.

http://igm.rit.edu/~jabics/GenJam94/Paper.html

You not only disagree with me but you have PDFs, papers, flowcharts, and PowerPoint slides to prove your case. I'm not willing to invest so much time in this debate. I'd rather be making music.

Yes, indeed, my "case" has support. I think about these things because music cognition is an interesting subject to me and I'm paid to think about statistical models and how they help our understanding of the real world. If it's not interesting to you, perhaps you should spend your time making music instead of making assertions for which you have no support?

You won the Internet!!!

[ghettosynth]

I disagree, not that it isn't pure chance, but that, based on those two quotes, that one can reasonably apply a probability to the outcome. Not that I think that it matters in any case.

Yes, you busted me trying to get more milage out of it than was warranted.

It did help to illustrate that trance producers are not just mindless mouse jockeys - which some people still have trouble understanding, or refuse to accept simply because they don't like it

Peace,
Andy.

I know what you were trying to get at. I'll say though that the uninitiated will say those things about Tiesto, so I take it with a grain of salt. The quote from the producer supports your point though, regardless of what induced it in the first place.

If people are really interested in an intellectual discussion of rhythm in EDM, specifically techno, Mark Butler's "Unlocking the Groove" is a good read. Mark Butler is currently a professor in the Department of Music at University of PA.

[ZenPunkHippy]

I'll say though that the uninitiated will say those things about <redacted>

Please stop mentioning him ... it's offensive

[ghettosynth]

We actually understand this much better than the crappy example that you posted demonstrates.

http://igm.rit.edu/~jabics/GenJam94/Paper.html

You not only disagree with me but you have PDFs, papers, flowcharts, and PowerPoint slides to prove your case. I'm not willing to invest so much time in this debate. I'd rather be making music.

Yes, indeed, my "case" has support. I think about these things because music cognition is an interesting subject to me and I'm paid to think about statistical models and how they help our understanding of the real world. If it's not interesting to you, perhaps you should spend your time making music instead of making assertions for which you have no support?

Eh, misinformed assertions can still spawn good discussions. He basically said "you win" in a roundabout way, didn't he

He did, and I said thanks in a similar tone, no?

On the matter of art music lending itself well to being algo generated, there's a very obvious chicken and egg reason: Algo music itself is often understood as a niche of art music.

Of course, but that does not diminish my point in any way. If being able to create music algorithmically is a net minus for a genre, then we must correctly assign academic musical masturbation the additive identity, amiright? That said, I was being quite general with respect to art music, that is, I was not specifically referring to algorithmic music.

Here are some autogenerated fugues in the style of J.S. Bach for you.

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/417989

A "remix"



And a poster presentation of the methods.

http://www.osbertngok.com/docs/Automate ... Poster.pdf

There is considerable work like this, e.g., Harmonet, a system based on connectionist networks trained to produce the coral style of J. S. Bach."

[RunBeerRun]

I haven't heard much trance acne, but I like the idea of it and try to emulate it.

I listen to 80's pop, no zit creme needed.

[Kain]

You hate trance and most forms of EDM when you have only hearded the mainstream shit (songs like Animals, with 4 - 6 single note bars on repeat)

Listen to this and tell me you don't like it!

https://soundcloud.com/airbasemusic/air ... s-operandi

Oh and try to focus on the 4 x 4 beat, that's the secret of enjoying trance.

[do_androids_dream]

Trance was Oliver Lieb, Ralf Hildenbeutel, Cosmic Baby, Resistance D, Eye Q records... where the f**k did it all go wasps-in-a-jar wrong eh? God, I feel old - that shit was 20 years ago now

[ZenPunkHippy]

Oliver Lieb ...

Yeah, a legend. He's still playing live, a friend saw him at Ozora festival last year - was totally blown away by the set.

Peace,
Andy.

[do_androids_dream]

You hate trance and most forms of EDM when you have only hearded the mainstream shit (songs like Animals, with 4 - 6 single note bars on repeat)

Listen to this and tell me you don't like it!

https://soundcloud.com/airbasemusic/air ... s-operandi

Oh and try to focus on the 4 x 4 beat, that's the secret of enjoying trance.

Edit - was grumpy last night...

[do_androids_dream]

Oliver Lieb ...

Yeah, a legend. He's still playing live, a friend saw him at Ozora festival last year - was totally blown away by the set.

Peace,
Andy.

Yep legend indeed. Occasionally he will release something that's reminiscent of the Lieb sound of old... Subsraumstimulation and that phools inc 12 on rising high were awesome newer releases (haha still 10 years plus old!). Oh man, Rising High records - they were THE trance label Starting to get a bit teary here!

[foosnark]

I expect the whole "computers have perfect timing" is a red herring, and it's simply the structure, the very fact of repetition, that matters.

Regardless of the musical training of the people involved (which I think is another red herring, despite having had some experience as a "real" musician myself) I found the examples posted here... just sort of uninspiring. Not precisely boring, but not exciting either. Inoffensive. Space filling. It didn't seem like the work of a brilliant creative mind, but it seemed like a thousand other trance tracks.

Maybe it's just a matter of appreciation, as some people say. I know that some genres require an adjustment before you can appreciate them. Harsher industrial stuff, drone, world folk music with odd time signatures or non-Western tunings. For that matter, In 1988, someone in the high school orchestra tried to introduce our conductor to the Dead Kennedys, and he literally thought they sounded "like static." I know I freaked out and stopped my Walkman the first time I heard Skinny Puppy vocals (and yet quickly grew to be a fan).

[bmrzycki]

Oliver Lieb ...

Yeah, a legend.

Rising High records

We are not worthy!

[nasenmann]

Maybe it's just a matter of appreciation, as some people say. I know that some genres require an adjustment before you can appreciate them. Harsher industrial stuff, drone, world folk music with odd time signatures or non-Western tunings. For that matter, In 1988, someone in the high school orchestra tried to introduce our conductor to the Dead Kennedys, and he literally thought they sounded "like static." I know I freaked out and stopped my Walkman the first time I heard Skinny Puppy vocals (and yet quickly grew to be a fan).

Good points. I thought regular thrash metal like metallica sounded like static when i first heard it age 11 or so. Kind of intriguing static though.
We all tend to forget how mysterious this process of getting accomodated to a sound style/vision really is.
It's just hilarious when you go back to the 50's and have to imagine that older folks really, actually, not metaphorically, thought of stuff like elvis as noise. It's mindboggling.

Not sure if this absolutely pertains to stuff like tarnce, it's not like the melodies and harmonies are hard to recognise for anyone. It's certainly valid though when you look at the pace and function of that type of music. I'm part of the "too little originality/development in there" camp as well, but maybe i, like others, have just lost touch with a different, more 'primitive' (not meant condescendingly) way of appreciating music. I think keeping alive the idea of trance inducing minimal music, linked in spirit with more tribal times, is pretty damn important. It'll never be as creatively eclectic or catchy as the beatles, nor is it meant to.

[vurt]

you say "tribal times" for me thats a big part of trance music and most dance music to be honest.
its not music to be sat and listened to at home alone, its music for a gathering of people, until youve stood in a field with a hundred thousand other folk till dawn i doubt you will find trance alluring in any meaningful way.
yeah, there are odd exceptions to this rule, i love a bit of banco de gaia while im home alone for example, but on the whole it is indeed a tribal collective experience.

youre either on the bus or off the bus...