Commonly Used Modal Scales and Chords in Electronic Music

[MfLI]

To give less skilled musicians some additional tools. Like converting the Garageband Smart keyboard chords into a VST preset. Take myself: I suck with melodic instruments - used to play drums. So a simple to use logically laid out set of chords was my aim and I really only thought someone reading this forum might find it useful too. Perhaps I should have posted this at the Beginners forum

[JumpingJackFlash]

To give less skilled musicians some additional tools.

So you're arguing semantics too now? - It really doesn't matter whether you think of it as "teaching" or not, all the above comments still hold true.

So a simple to use logically laid out set of chords was my aim and I really only thought someone reading this forum might find it useful too. Perhaps I should have posted this at the Beginners forum

No. If your aim is to pass your experience onto others (whatever you choose to call it), you need to be sure you fully understand the nuances of the subject first. Otherwise you're just misleading people, and that is irresponsible. I'm sure your intentions are good, but you're actually doing harm because you're passing your misunderstandings onto others, and thus compounding them.

[cryophonik]

Perhaps I should have posted this at the Beginners forum

Actually, I think that posting it here first was the much better way to go. If you had posted it in the Beginners' forum, it probably wouldn't have been seen by people with enough knowledge to tell you that it's wrong and misleading information (i.e., jancivil and JJF - if they agree on something, you can bet that it's pretty much fact! ). Better to have it proofed here first before passing off this misinformation to beginners, who would have to unlearn it later on. Look, we get what you're trying to do, but when people with far more music theory expertise tell you that you're wrong (and you are wrong), your best reaction is to show some humility, suck it up, and take it as a lesson learned. Better yet, use the info in this thread as a springboard to try to better understand modes and exactly WHY you're getting hammered here.

[MfLI]

Honestly not arguing.

So... If I understand you correct you are saying Aeolian A is not same as A natural minor.

I indeed thought the Aeolian mode scales equal natural minor.

My understanding is that natural minor in A plays like:
A,B,C,D,E,F,G
and the chords are
The triads
i - Am (A,C,E)
ii* - Bdim (B,D,F)
III - Cmaj (C,E,G)
iv - Dm (D,F,A)
v - Em (E,G,B)
VI - FMaj (F,A,C)
VII - GMaj (G,B,D)
... ...
to respective sevenths, secondary dominants etc. all the way to suspended ones like
G7sus4 (G,C,D,F)

This all wrong?

[JumpingJackFlash]

If I understand you correct you are saying Aeolian A is not same as A natural minor.

Correct.
Nor is C Ionian the same as C major.

They consist of the same notes, but they are used in different ways.

There are several things we could get into here, but the most important fundamental thing you need to grasp first is that modes (modality) are not the same as keys (tonality).

(Although it's also important to realise that "natural minor" is a scale, not a key and those are also different things).

[jancivil]

To give less skilled musicians some additional tools.

This stuff isn't going to do anything for anybody except muddy the waters.

[MfLI]

Frankly... Still a tad confused. So... Still about the scale I put above. According to my understanding those should be the natural minor scale and chords from A which according to my understanding is same as Aeolian modal scale from A.

If not... I guess the best way to tell the differences would be really show how the triad chords for example differ in those two. Would you care to write them as above? Thank you for your effort in any case.

About the Ionian stuff: The article in Wikipedia seems contradictory to what you wrote as it says: "The major scale or Ionian scale is one of the most commonly used scales"

I understand the above as if they're the same scale.

[jancivil]

So instead of promptly pointing out the erroneus chords you prefer to go into a pseudo psychological, completely off topic, mumbojumbo analysis about how full of s*it I am Gee, man... I simply don't get u. Honestly I don't.

Thank's for the amusement factor tho

You keep digging that hole for yourself, proving that you can't be bothered to read the actual statements. It isn't about 'erroneous chords', although there is some absolute garbage soon enough there. This is not a useful approach at all. I don't have the time to sort through your midi! I don't owe you a thing. You are so incompetent you can't hear how horrible certain things sound? There is a whole passage that sounds like someone banging deafly, and all of it is such PLONKING. Come ON, man.

The topic has to deal with you being full of shit. I'm being candid with you about what I think about this kind of thing in the world. There is a psychology here and I think it's pretty accurate, and shown by what you did and keep doing, you don't check yourself. I think most people would browse a forum and get a sense of their spot before posting this. I think you REALLY need to hear that bit if nothing else. Your arrogance is astonishing.

[jancivil]

Frankly... Still a tad confused. So... Still about the scale I put above. According to my understanding those should be the natural minor scale and chords from A which according to my understanding is same as Aeolian modal scale from A.

If not... I guess the best way to tell the differences would be really show how the triad chords for example differ in those two. Would you care to write them as above? Thank you for your effort in any case.

About the Ionian stuff: The article in Wikipedia seems contradictory to what you wrote as it says: "The major scale or Ionian scale is one of the most commonly used scales"

I understand the above as if they're the same scale.

JJF has gone into a subtle thing probably more suitable for someone with more to work with than you.

"Major" and "Minor" are, and particularly they are to JJF, imbued with context and that context is harmonic. Modes do not comport in that world. You decided that this little exercise of compiling a chord for each of seven steps as you have noticed from some place, is valid for modes. Maybe you saw this very 'Modal chords in EDM' on the internet and went yeah, that's the ticket.

Modes are MELODIC material, not harmonic material. The person interested really in modes is looking for the character and feel they avail us of. The interest is in melody, chords isn't it. You just went off half-cocked to show off something you believed you understood well enough to share. You don't.

The modes are pretty much obviated by treating them like this. You don't need a chord at all, the mode avails us of a whole rich thing through itself. By the character tones which we will identify them through. Aeolian is a minor quality, ie., third is minor, mode, with the seventh and sixth both minor. The term 'minor scale' brings a connotation of harmony. "Natural" minor historically has been one of three minor scales, the others being melodic (6 and 7 are raised in ascension, same as natural coming back down) and harmonic, where the 7 is raised mainly following the fact of the V chord of major quality as 'dominant' (6 remaining 'minor'). Now, that harmonic minor can be done as modal, so there is a sort of Venn overlap in terms; the usage is where we sort this out. "Minor" and "Major" demarcate an area where we expect harmonic practice to govern.

In EDM music, 'natural minor' in many cases is not going to be essentially different than 'Aeolian'; but should there be, vis a vis A Aeolian, an E major {V} chord, then we're in harmonic territory and 'Aeolian' has been vacated. As per 'Ionian' vs 'major', that major is wrapped up in 'V-I' essentially, so this B in C major is a leading tone and part of a dominant harmony, 'G B D F' for instance. Ionian as a mode isn't. EG: In Indian Classical Music the Bilaval thaat is the same intervallically as 'Ionian mode', and a raga might very well take that ^7 as a plateau or 'subdominant' and dwell there, and the prescribed move is to P5 and not 8.

Two or three chords which enhance the mode's character can be quite suitable. Again, chords with the tritone tension - in C, B/F - which we are entrained by tonal music to expect a resolution, are dodgy here. But again, I cannot overemphasize this, the notion of treating modes like tonal music is a mistake, there's no real call for it.

Now, if you had browsed this forum for your topic, which crops up with a certain frequency, you would have encountered this information, and a lot of discussion. But NOOOOOO. Now there is a problem we have to address, what you have is misleading and the opposite of helpful to the newb.
You compounded the faux pas in etiquette by assuming this dynamic with me, where I'm sure it can't have looked like I was looking to you for help, and I reacted. I stand by every word however.

[jancivil]

Just one more question to you guys: From which sentence in my text did you get the impression that I'm here to teach you (or anybody for that matter) something?

"I'm sorry you didn't find what you were looking for." But first of all 'here's my blog'; now you have 'this is information for the less skilled musician [than myself]' which is comedy gold.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Still about the scale I put above. According to my understanding those should be the natural minor scale and chords from A which according to my understanding is same as Aeolian modal scale from A.

If not... I guess the best way to tell the differences would be really show how the triad chords for example differ in those two. Would you care to write them as above? Thank you for your effort in any case.

The thing is, triadic harmony is a feature of tonality, but it doesn't work the same way (if at all) with modality. Typically, modal music uses very few chords. As jancivil pointed out earlier, having lots of chords in a modal context is likely to destroy that context. It's possible to use lots of chords, if you know what you're doing, but it gets complicated because you have to be very careful you aren't destroying the mode.

A chord progression of C-Dm-G7-C for example is almost always going to be heard (to modern Western ears) as I-ii-V7-I in C major. It doesn't matter what mode you think you're in - that will still be the effect.

On paper, you might write it as III-iv-VII-III in the Aeolian mode for example, but that is nonsense because it won't be heard like that. Regardless of how you write it, aurally it's in C major.

As I said, it is possible to overcome (or compensate for) these inherent tendencies, but it requires a great deal of skill.

About the Ionian stuff: The article in Wikipedia seems contradictory to what you wrote as it says: "The major scale or Ionian scale is one of the most commonly used scales"

The same notes are also used in Bilaval That, Mela Shankarabharanam, Ghana Heptatonic, 4th plagal Byzantine, Makam Cargah, Ajam Ashiran, Dastgah-e Mahur and Dastgah-e Rast Panjgah to name just a few, but that doesn't make them all identical.

Incidentally, the statement is dubious for other reasons too. Historically, "Ionian" and "Aeolian" were very late additions to music, and were largely theoretical. In practice, our major scale grew out of the Lydian mode, and our minor from Dorian.

[jancivil]

For Dorian, i and IV (IV containing the character tone for us westerners, M6 as per '1') is typical.

Once someone posted here something they believed was Dorian but had put the seventh onto the IV. IIRC this was the issue, 'does this "I-IV7" come across as ii-V7 to you'. So while there were places of ambiguity, Dorian was just never really solid, which belongs with that tritone in IV7 as given. The thing to know is that for 'D Dorian' D has to be solidly home base. I would not do that IV7 myself, that 7 is not all that cute, and it brings in a problem.

[ghettosynth]

To give less skilled musicians some additional tools. Like converting the Garageband Smart keyboard chords into a VST preset. Take myself: I suck with melodic instruments - used to play drums. So a simple to use logically laid out set of chords was my aim and I really only thought someone reading this forum might find it useful too. Perhaps I should have posted this at the Beginners forum

That would have been a better idea, but, not because your "tool" is more suited to their tastes, rather, because their tastes are more suited to your "tool." That is, I'm saying nothing of the quality, or lack thereof, of your tool, I'm saying that their tastes are often indiscriminate and they might be willing to use any tool. Not only that, but they might be willing to use them in ways not approved by the clergy.

People often make use of things that they don't understand, even "wrong" things, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Experts get all bent out of shape over it and they can't imagine how someone would possibly make use of such a thing. Much of the time such "tools" are used to incompetently make shit, but so what?

I once had a customer who used an old DOS spreadsheet to type his letters. He didn't understand that there was an entire class of software, called word processors, in which you could write letters with ease. He didn't have one of those, he had a spreadsheet and discovered that you could use cells like a crude layout grid. He thought that he was clever and was excited to share his idea. He was certainly ignorant and groping around in the dark, but he was able to write letters.

Your tool is a bit like the typical circuit bent instrument. It's an arrangement of the elements of the "thing" of sorts, there might be some accidental competence mixed in with the general incompetence, but, for most circuit bent instruments, there's strong indication that the "creator" really doesn't understand electronics. But! That doesn't stop the "artist" from making "music" with his tool or selling it on ebay to someone else with less ability to make such things themselves and a belief that the "thing" is useful to them. In other words, even though I cringe when I hear people talking about how they made such tools, I recognize that their incorrect ideas are often useful to others in some way, and, that their "methods" occasionally stumble across an interesting signal path.

You're taking the time to put something out there, do it where someone might make use of it, or, if not, tell you what they could use. Don't just put it out in a vacuum, describe how you would use the tool to make EDM. Maybe you'll use the wrong language to describe what you're doing, but, again, so what?

The only reason to post here is if you want actual technical feedback about what you're doing. Even then, your perception of an anti-EDM bias is correct, and this will flavor the responses. If you want people to use your "tool", warts and all, then post in the beginners forum or one of the other forums. At least there you will get feedback from both users and critics.

[JumpingJackFlash]

That would have been a better idea, but, not because your "tool" is more suited to their tastes, rather, because their tastes are more suited to your "tool." That is, I'm saying nothing of the quality, or lack thereof, of your tool, I'm saying that their tastes are often indiscriminate and they might be willing to use any tool. Not only that, but they might be willing to use them in ways not approved by the clergy.

This isn't a tool, it is information which is misleading at best. Someone somewhere might be able to get something out of it, but that's not the point. Even if they do, it is going to lead to confusion (again, at best. At worst it perpetuates ignorance).

If people want information about scales and/or chords, there are literally thousands of better places they can get that information from. Getting correct information is always better than getting incorrect information.

Misleading information does more harm than good.

And beginners are the absolute worst people you should post this to, because they lack the wisdom necessary to realise how bad it is.

[jancivil]

To give less skilled musicians some additional tools. Like converting the Garageband Smart keyboard chords into a VST preset. Take myself: I suck with melodic instruments - used to play drums. So a simple to use logically laid out set of chords was my aim and I really only thought someone reading this forum might find it useful too. Perhaps I should have posted this at the Beginners forum

That would have been a better idea, but, not because your "tool" is more suited to their tastes, rather, because their tastes are more suited to your "tool."
blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah

The only reason to post here is if you want actual technical feedback about what you're doing. Even then, your perception of an anti-EDM bias is correct, and this will flavor the responses. If you want people to use your "tool", warts and all, then post in the beginners forum or one of the other forums. At least there you will get feedback from both users and critics.

Oh jebus god save us from this drivel, this verbose pile of garbage. I'm not being a critic. What I have, which will be verified by every person that has this, is the real deal. The color of my response vis a vis EDM is completely the f**k irrelevant. I have a bias towards what is useful, towards reality. You really have little business in here at all, and when you do bust in here, this is what it looks like.

He doesn't have a tool, he has a bad premise and the same automatic result a hundred people have already posted here. There is the exact same discussion I think one post away from this one. Evidently you don't even understand the material but you want to mollify this other EDM victim.