KVR Audio

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Sun May 18, 2014 11:00 am

I tried to use "normal" piano chords with guitar VST. It sounds... well, not guitar. But if I play MIDI files from internet sources, guitar sounds OK. But if I check these MIDIs in piano roll, they seem to be quite strange. A chord can expand to three or even four octaves!

My question: is there some basic difference between guitar chords and piano chords when in MIDI format? I know that there are such things as power chords and such, but these MIDIs are too wild for that explanation. I mean these sounds are all over the map!

Could someone explain? Googling doesn't much help because I don't have any keywords.

jackoo · Post by **jackoo** » Sun May 18, 2014 11:05 am

Hi. Could you please share where you've found some of these MIDI guitar files? I'd like to study them also.

Playing guitar parts on the keyboard in a realistic way has always been interesting for me.

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Sun May 18, 2014 11:20 am

There are numerous sites and the quality varies very much.

This is one site with free MIDIs (you need to edit non-guitar tracks out if you need only guitar parts):

http://www.efmidi.com/

If there are restrictions to posting links, it's www dot efmidi dot com.

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Sun May 18, 2014 1:30 pm

I went through some of the files and now I have even more confusing findings. Somehow the guitar tracks can have two things going on on the same track, like if you would have a bassline and rhythm/melody going together. I *do* understand that a guitar is very difficult beast to learn and understand, but I feel there's something really weird in these guitar MIDIs going on. Chords from outer space.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sun May 18, 2014 3:15 pm

Without tapping the widest "one hand" standard tuning 6 string range is about...two and a third octaves and that's stretching things a bit as well as leaving out a chord or two.

The spread can be much larger for two handed piano chords. Piano chords with a large gap in the middle of the keyboard are called "Open Chords" and a keyboard can play "wider" chords then a guitar. Much wider.

There are 7 and eight string guitars but it still pales to the range of a keyboard. As well there are 10 and 12 string "Sticks" which extend the range more.

Yes fingerstyle guitar can allow for bass and harmony or bass and melody or what we commonly refer to as... Chord melody. Check out some Chet Atkins or Sungha Jung or Tommy Emanuel or Ted Greene videos for starters.

While one can't play exactly the same way on a keyboard there are several methods of playing keys using reharmonization and walking basslines and a myriad of other approaches. If your the real stuff on an organ you can run basslines with your feet play harmony on one "manual" and play another on a second manual.

Watch this guy on an organ

The left and right hand "at points" are used in combination to form larger chords.
At other "points in time" the left hand does one thing on the upper manual (melody) while the left hand "comps" chords and the feet lay down a bassline. The only thing he isn't playing is the percussion.

Beyond theory lays "Style" There are several "soloist" (meaning one person does the whole arrangement) "styles" of playing be it a finger picking style or a keyboard soloist style.

A good teacher is usually required (real life in person) to develop the expanded techniques of these styles It's not something that watching a five minute video will allow you to learn. First you have to get a grip on the basics of two handed technique for piano and then move forward or the basics of finger picking.

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Sun May 18, 2014 4:09 pm

Thanks, tapper mike, this was illuminating. Huge talents those guys. For some strange reason by following links I ended several times from names you metioned to Mark Knopfler.

However, I guess it is a mystery, why these MIDIs with four octave "chord-like-things" sound better than standard chords. There were additional tracks for other instruments, so it's not my error (i.e. I didn't combine tracks accidentally). Keyboard, drum and bass tracks seem normal to me, only guitar ones are all over the map.

But no worries, investigating this is getting fun.

On the other hand, with electric guitar VST simulations it seems that these intricate wide MIDIs cause problems... Amplifier and cabinet sims have difficulties with them, it seems.

Ah well. Guitar is so complicated instrument that sometimes I like to see it as collection of different instruments. Electric guitar even more so with all these additional parts...

MadBrain · Post by **MadBrain** » Sun May 18, 2014 4:23 pm

Guitars tend to play widely spaced chords because the strings are normally tuned to a relatively wide interval (fourths). So they play "open" chord voicings. If you try to play Cmaj9 as C,D,E,G,B, with each note as close as possible (a "close" voicing), it's probably not going to be physically playable on a guitar. (and it will not sound ok)

Also, it's essentially impossible to play all the guitar strings exactly at the same time, you have to have some kind of flam going on or it will sound wrong.

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Sun May 18, 2014 4:42 pm

MadBrain, does that mean that these MIDI files play different strings from different octaves? That could make sense. Or, at least, if such a system can be arranged consistently... One wonders how these are actually *done*.

The other thing I have taken care of in my own guitar compositions, I have changed the MIDI notes slightly so that they are not completely concurrent. This is good idea for many other instruments too, it seems.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Sun May 18, 2014 5:03 pm

MadBrain wrote:

Also, it's essentially impossible to play all the guitar strings exactly at the same time, you have to have some kind of flam going on or it will sound wrong.

that's a great point, but I think one can easily overcome this with any DAW. All you got to do is nudge the notes of the chord forward for each note after the one that would be the first note struck...quantize is not always our friend

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:04 pm

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:24 pm

Remember too that you can play notes very far apart on a guitar if you play chords high up the neck with open strings. A good example would be playing above the 12th fret an octave higher than normal with the same open strings that you would play an octave lower, or something like EMaj9 would have a range of 3 octaves and a tone.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sun May 18, 2014 9:36 pm

There is a lot of that in....Aja by Steely Dan Open Strings with high up cluster voicings.

Re transcriptions for guitars where a chord is over four octaves. I wouldn't trust it as being an accurate representation of guitar playing. A standard tuning 6 string guitar with 24 frets has a four octave range.
Sure you can play harmonics above that but played all at once makes me think that something is a miss with the transcription.

Re names I mentioned.

Sungha Jung

Ted Greene - The big stretchy chord master

Chet Atkins the alternating bass and chord / melody master

Here's a guy who had a few hits with his wife before going solo

Here's a guy I really like who is an amazing fingerstyle player.

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Sun May 18, 2014 10:13 pm

Thanks, this gives me a lot to think about!

I found out ways to improve my own sound, but I'm still wondering how others do stuff...

There is so much to learn, endless amount of details to improve. I guess these alternating single notes and chords could be just to make sound more real, kind of humanizing factor.

Also it appears that when I implement these details presented here, the amp sims etc. after the guitar sim work also more realistically. It might be that all this detail kind of fills the areas with fast changes with softer progressions...

It would be impossible to convert this kind of MIDI files to music sheet, I guess...

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:18 pm

Most daw's have notation views inside them so you can see the sheets and it can print the sheets.
As well there are free notation products that import midi and display notation that can be printed.
https://www.google.com/search?q=free+no ... 3&ie=UTF-8

For guitar sims and amp sims from midi files(very important distinction) I've found Guitar Pro to be the best. http://www.guitar-pro.com/en/index.php? ... /interface

It is not a daw. It cannot record midi or audio in real time. It can display content in tablature and standard notation. While one can't "rewire" guitar pro into a daw one can... import a midi file or work with an existing guitar pro file then isolate a track and render a wav file that can be imported into a daw.

The RSE engine (for guitars, amps, effects) is quite stunning and they use a functional DXI soundbank for non guitar instruments which is better then standard .

Markku · Post by **Markku** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:28 pm

Yes, I have Guitar Pro 6, but I've only used it to get tabs to midi (and to try chord sounds)... Maybe I should investigate it a bit more. Also, there's (free) Aria Maestosa, which handles MIDI, tabs and normal notation quite well (it has sound capabilities as well, but those are not working in my setup, I have very non-standard PC setup).

But I guess my confusion is more or less due to trying to understand what I see as I would with keyboard or piano; guitar representation is (obviously) very different. But I'm (slowly) learning the error of my ways.

Newbie comparing guitar and piano MIDIs?