Your thoughts on modes

[jancivil]

If you play seven notes in a row, you play a scale. This is "Music 101", you can't be any lower than this.

But when we're talking about a set of "scales" it is clear to anyone who wasn't sleeping through junior high school mathematics, that a non-empty subset would also contain scales.

So, people use the word modes to refer to the collection of scales that share names with modes, in the parent's case, he referred to the six most common scales used in pop music. That set of "scales" is a subset of the set of scales that people deal with in pop music. Here subset is used correctly both in the lay sense, and in the mathematical sense.

So, you have "a collection of scales" inside C Major? Wow, you certainlly missed your music classes

You can't have a "subset" of a single thing, even if you are math genius.

All of the scales that are supposed to make up a set in order to posit 'subset' are just a transposition of the one single thing. So to use the plural is really not so meaningful.

The modes are not a subset of scales; the name of modes as though they are simply scales is not different in this regard; if you confound them so that they are as meaningless as all this, they're all the same seven notes. Then there are eleven other statements of this same thing.

[Winstontaneous]

My goodness, children, I'm glad I already know music theory because threads like these would scare me away from learning it. This Music Theory forum is seriously the biggest bummer on KVR. I propose it be renamed "Territorial Pissings & Endless Semantic Argumentation" to more accurately reflect its content. Talk about noise to signal ratio...

So you're saying that arguments about meanings is empty, noise. Tough shit for you, be somewhere else.

Your hostile response containing an expletive proves my point precisely, thanks! I was pointing out that the vibe in the Music Theory forum was off-putting at best to a person such as myself familiar with theory. I can't imagine beginners wading through the vitriol.

I actually do want to be in the Music Theory forum, thank you very much. Arguments about meaning are the signal, it's the angry tone and name calling that are the noise.

[codec_spurt]

Ah I see that Dorian mode is 'Greek' mode.

Funny that, a lot of places refer to it as 'jazz mode'

Then again, one man's Greek is another man's 'jazz', as they say.

Why not look this up on Wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scal ... inor_scale

They even use 'Lick my love pump' as a reference. How highbrow can you get?

Harmonic Minor is my personal favourite, it has a kind of Arabic feel to it.

See the Maqam for parallels - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_maqam
--------------
Background

The designation maqam appeared for the first time in the treatises written in the fourteenth century by al-Sheikh al-Safadi and Abdulqadir al-Maraghi, and has since then been used as a technical term in Arabic music. The maqam is a modal structure that characterizes the art of music of countries in North Africa, the Near East and Central Asia. In this area we can distinguish three main musical cultures which all belong to the maqam modal family, Arabic, Persian, and Turkish.
Tuning system

The notes of a maqam are not tuned in equal temperament (meaning that the frequency ratios of successive pitches are not necessarily identical, unlike the chromatic scale used in modern Western music). A maqam also determines other things, such as the tonic (starting note), the ending note, and the dominant note. It also determines which notes should be emphasized and which should not.[3]

Arabic maqams are based on a musical scale of 7 notes that repeats at the octave. Some maqams have 2 or more alternative scales (e.g. Rast, Nahawand and Hijaz). Maqam scales in traditional Arabic music are microtonal, not based on a twelve-tone equal-tempered musical tuning system, as is the case in modern Western music. Most maqam scales include a perfect fifth or a perfect fourth (or both), and all octaves are perfect. The remaining notes in a maqam scale may or may not exactly fall on semitones. For this reason maqam scales are mostly taught orally, and by extensive listening to the traditional Arabic music repertoire.
----------------

Safe to say, one could spend one's life studying this shit and never get to the bottom of it, let alone trying to get someone to understand, on the internet.

We get into the fields of different tunings, equal temparement and all that. It's just a mine field, there is no consensus at all, not even amongst the musicians that are proponents of their particular field. Remind you of the sub-stratification of techno, anyone. NO man, it's hard techno. NO it's not, it's easy listening techno. NO, it's techno for dummies. NO, it's trance. Mmmm. Trance? NO, it's hard Trance. Noooo...

It all gets lost. But it needs to. It all gets recycled again. Don't worry. Like our bodies that become dust. It all goes to a good cause. It all goes to nothing. Look on my works ye mighty and despair. On the lone and level..

I blame Pythagoras personally, but that is another kettle of fish again.

[jancivil]

Your hostile response containing an expletive proves my point precisely, thanks!

And this story you are driven to tell 'Territorial Pissings...' added to the signal? As a whole I feel pretty good about how much signal I have provided. As for you, there isn't any, there is this little blast of noise, isn't it.

[jancivil]

Ah I see that Dorian mode is 'Greek' mode.

Funny that, a lot of places refer to it as 'jazz mode'

Then again, one man's Greek is another man's 'jazz', as they say.

Why not look this up on Wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes

I was just about to start up onthe 'talk page' on that very article at least, or really have at it if I wasn't such a wreck.

It's a clusterfuck, avoid it.

[sjm]

"If all-white-keys E Phrygian has E as 'tonic', or center and we haven't destroyed it with harmonies that pull to C major, and play modally (respect its character basically) 'E Phrygian' is a perfectly useful name."

You mean a key signature of C major but with E as the "root"? Much like a lot of metal stuff and psy-trance?

[jancivil]

We get into the fields of different tunings, equal temparement and all that. It's just a mine field, there is no consensus at all, not even amongst the musicians that are proponents of their particular field.

No, just because there are people that are confused and even post their confusion at wiki doesn't mean there is no consensus.

Equal temperament is completely understood. Five-limit JI is not a matter of opinion. There are different "Rasts" in different places, and there is no absolute way of measurement for any one of them in practive but there is a basis in ratios and that is pretty directly accessible. Et cetera.

[codec_spurt]

Ah I see that Dorian mode is 'Greek' mode.

Funny that, a lot of places refer to it as 'jazz mode'

Then again, one man's Greek is another man's 'jazz', as they say.

Why not look this up on Wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes

I was just about to start up onthe 'talk page' on that very article at least, or really have at it if I wasn't such a wreck.

It's a clusterfuck, avoid it.

All pissing aside, it is interesting though how the odd things get skewed, like the Greek and Jazz thing.

But you can take any form of music from any history and draw parallels.

There are some great hidden gems of knowledge in there for sure, but no one cares.

Like I said, it's alright. It all gets recycled in the end and they call it 'new wave'.

I'd like to live in a different world, where others were interested in such things and we could sit down and study them and learn from the past to build worlds for the future, but I'd probably get called a ponce.

Wait a minute, I can feel a youtube sketch coming on..

[codec_spurt]

"If all-white-keys E Phrygian has E as 'tonic', or center and we haven't destroyed it with harmonies that pull to C major, and play modally (respect its character basically) 'E Phrygian' is a perfectly useful name."

You mean a key signature of C major but with E as the "root"? Much like a lot of metal stuff and psy-trance?

Good call!

I thought I was the only one.

I do it all the time. When I do my metal, when I do my psy-trance.

See.

SEE?

[codec_spurt]

We get into the fields of different tunings, equal temparement and all that. It's just a mine field, there is no consensus at all, not even amongst the musicians that are proponents of their particular field.

No, just because there are people that are confused and even post their confusion at wiki doesn't mean there is no consensus.

Equal temperament is completely understood. Five-limit JI is not a matter of opinion. There are different "Rasts" in different places, and there is no absolute way of measurement for any one of them in practive but there is a basis in ratios and that is pretty directly accessible. Et cetera.

You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. By a million miles. Probably my delivery. Sorry.

Then again, I never heard the word 'Rasts' before, so I suppose I am about to learn something new.

[jancivil]

"If all-white-keys E Phrygian has E as 'tonic', or center and we haven't destroyed it with harmonies that pull to C major, and play modally (respect its character basically) 'E Phrygian' is a perfectly useful name."

You mean a key signature of C major but with E as the "root"? Much like a lot of metal stuff and psy-trance?

I would say that you may as well say 'key signature of C major'. The other day I found an analysis of E Lydian that gave five sharps.

I have argued that point here, but not everyone sees it. But yeah, I mean those seven notes but E has to be the center, like the bass hits it frequently or a drone so there is no question of it being the center for 'E Phrygian' to retain meaning. So if we get a lot of G7 type of chord, that B-F gives an expectation to most of us to pull to C major.
And yeah, like a lot of metal and psy-trance. I think it's rather in currency, actual modal music so my assumption is not ghettosynth's.

So it's typical in [E] phrygian to lean on its character tones, F to E, C to B and not things in harmony that do 'B leading tone to C'.

[jancivil]

We get into the fields of different tunings, equal temparement and all that. It's just a mine field, there is no consensus at all, not even amongst the musicians that are proponents of their particular field.

No, just because there are people that are confused and even post their confusion at wiki doesn't mean there is no consensus.

Equal temperament is completely understood. Five-limit JI is not a matter of opinion. There are different "Rasts" in different places, and there is no absolute way of measurement for any one of them in practive but there is a basis in ratios and that is pretty directly accessible. Et cetera.

You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. By a million miles. Probably my delivery. Sorry.

Then again, I never heard the word 'Rasts' before, so I suppose I am about to learn something new.

You actually did say 'there is no consensus at all', which is what I actually have to go on.

Rast is a particular MAQAM. There is an 'Iraqi' Rast, there is a Turkish Rast, etc.

[sjm]

But yeah, I mean those seven notes but E has to be the center, like the bass hits it frequently or a drone so there is no question of it being the center for 'E Phrygian' to retain meaning. So if we get a lot of G7 type of chord, that B-F gives an expectation to most of us to pull to C major.
And yeah, like a lot of metal and psy-trance. I think it's rather in currency, actual modal music so my assumption is not ghettosynth's.

So it's typical in [E] phrygian to lean on its character tones, F to E, C to B and not things in harmony that do 'B leading tone to C'.

Thanks for the helpful info. This was how I understood it (more or less) but with all the noise and off topic nonsense in this forum, it's hard to focus on what's actually relevant.

[codec_spurt]

We get into the fields of different tunings, equal temparement and all that. It's just a mine field, there is no consensus at all, not even amongst the musicians that are proponents of their particular field.

No, just because there are people that are confused and even post their confusion at wiki doesn't mean there is no consensus.

Equal temperament is completely understood. Five-limit JI is not a matter of opinion. There are different "Rasts" in different places, and there is no absolute way of measurement for any one of them in practive but there is a basis in ratios and that is pretty directly accessible. Et cetera.

You have totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. By a million miles. Probably my delivery. Sorry.

Then again, I never heard the word 'Rasts' before, so I suppose I am about to learn something new.

You actually did say 'there is no consensus at all', which is what I actually have to go on.

Rast is a particular MAQAM. There is an 'Iraqi' Rast, there is a Turkish Rast, etc.

Ah, I gotcha!

Maybe like the Indian 'Rag'?

Gonna look this one up. Never heard of it before.

The fact you say it is a form of Maqam intrigues me even more.

[codec_spurt]

I've quickly looked that up.

Nice!

What I find most fascinating, is that for me, the dominant aspect of the Harmonic Minor scale is its large tone jumps, that you just don't get else where with the standard Minor and Major or even Modal scales, there of.

And that reminds me of an Arabic sound. I have no reference for that, apart from growing up in an Arabic country and hearing the music every day for years, so it is kind of ingrained into my skull.

But it seems that the whole detemining point of this Rast scale, is its Microtonality, where as the defining point of the Harmonic Minor scale is its 'Supertonality'. That is, the Rast breaks individual tones and notes down to its parts, but the Harmonic Minor scale makes these big jumps of a whole tone and a half, or three semi-tones. No other common Western scale does this. In deed if we could even call the Harmonic Minor a 'common Western scale'.

Somehow, with the big hops around the board (keyboard or fingerboard) that the Harmonic Minor makes, it corresponds with the little hops that are made within the individual tones and notes and frets.

Not by note of course, just by ear. It is as if the major is contained in the minor. As above, so below. Fractals, almost.