KVR Audio

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:11 pm

jancivil wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:Do you really think that he's going to think much about it in either case? Or, do you think that the right and left hands might automatically go to the same place on his 49 key fruity loops controller out of habit? Or, that he's going to just paint in a "melody" and then copy parts of it down an octave or two for the bass, and then thin it out a bit? What's the probability that he's going to add some chord that doesn't work? It's not hard to come up with a prior on that one, amiright? What do you think that he's going to do if he wants it in a different, oh excuse me, key? Which here means only that the bass note really hits that sub hard. He's going to use his computer to transpose the thing. Done and done.

All that I'm arguing is that people coming from that point of view find that simplistic approach useful. I know people like that, I doubt that you do. Useful here has a simple meaning, it means that they create music that they're happy with.

I have no idea what this unfortunate scenario has to do with answering a question about what modes are for, unless you are telling me there is no help for the terminally incurious. If that's it, you may be right.

How do you feature I started out? Cluelessly, bashing about on a toy organ and later a cheap guitar, by ear. I had read music for Bb trumpet which didn't much apply.
But yes, I was after something more than someone that would think that is what you do to make music. It seems like a lot of energy spent in saying leave these people be. Be advised that my remarks are not restricted to conveying something to that guy. I realize that you believe I have nothing to offer that guy. Not my problem.

Forget it. This guy is an ignorant, wants to keep everyone else as ignorant as he is, and is frightened if someone comes and tells the the king is naked. he is not interested in learning, he just thinks that nobody cares about learning, and ultimately, he thinks that's the right attitude, because music is a simppe subject, you just have to open your DAW, assemble a couple of loops, and, if in doubt, consult one of those "music for dummies" sites that squeezes all knowledge in a couple of paragraphs. Then, it's just a matter of use the magic wand, and the job is done.

All the people that take this seriously are just "pedantic". He is the only one that's right.

BTW - It would be good to hear something from the OP. After all, he seemed to be genuinely interested in knowing about MODES, nor scales.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:13 pm

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:55 am

ghettosynth wrote:
jancivil wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:
jancivil wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:That said, it is no surprise to me that people think that A mode is a displaced scale played from root to root of the chord as that's exactly how many authors begin a discussion of modes. So they read these statements and want to know how they can make use of this sort of thing in some way.
Well, as I said twice now, if you want to do "E Phrygian", E is your center (or 'tonic' after a manner of speaking) and we are doing this because the sound of it is what it is.
Yes, thanks. You often confuse my support of different approaches to my approach. Thanks, but I don't need your description of modes.
You f**king asked what I would say, but now it became you don't need it? And now you're about to ask exactly the same question. WTFF.

You asked how people use that information, I described it for you. I'm not looking for your learned opinion, and neither is that guy, he's already off making another banger.

You're going on about E Phrygian being in E (in the same sense that you mean)... You and Fernando have been banging on about how it's all C Major, no, it's not. It's only C Major if you displace the scale and "harmonize" in C Major. It is not C Major when you displace the scale and harmonize with the new "keynote" (a good enough word for Mark Hewitt, hence good enough for me)

Good grief. Look, man, it's YOU that are having reading difficulties in this thread, unless it somehow suits you to misconstruct what was said deliberately.

"When you displace the scale". That's not really a competent statement but you have the gist nonetheless. If the keynote, whatever, is E for E Phrygian, yes. Are we both speaking English now? I did not ask how people use 'that information'. I stated it is not useful. If there was a question mark it was a rhetorical question.
The article is garbage, it lacks the most basic competence and the sentences were made by a moron or at least someone that should study the English language a bit more first.
You arguing for it is insulting everyone's intelligence; it doesn't do any trick you think it does because it makes you look completely clueless.

Additionally, your statement 'just use the modes as scales in teh EDM' doesn't really carry any meaning. You're halfway there, but you still want to confound the two terms, scale and mode. You stated yourself you're not here to learn, that isn't mine so don't blame me. You should be, but no, you take up all of this space with this pointless crap.

I suspected you did understand the basic meaning, which makes you bringing in this garbage far worse than if you were an ignoramus.

ghettosynth wrote:
You aren't here to learn and you have nothing to teach.
Not that I agree with you, but, neither of which are a requirement to post, so that's not particularly relevant. As I've told you before, this isn't your forum although you'd clearly like it to be. People are here to have a discussion, it doesn't have to involve you. Since you brought it up, however, we can assume that you think yourself a teacher, you are not. You are really bad at connecting to students and you get angry at their impertinence far too easily. When your singular and weak presentation method fails your only resort is to question their commitment, their integrity, or their intelligence.

Cool story, bro.
I don't know where I literally did that, but to say my 'only resort' is that, because I have failed, is on reflection just kind of hilarious. If I'm dealing with raging assholism such as yours, yeah my authentic views would tend to seep through. I'm not trying to present according to what you like anyway.

[edits] I reflected a little on my experiences being taught as a young person. When I was 14 my mother paid for classical guitar lessons for me. The teacher was well-known in the area, had good press and had produced some students that had notable success. He was an old guy by this time. After, donno, four lessons or so he totally questioned my commitment. He did not hide his irritation at me noodling around with my little blues licks. He essentially told me to get real or get out. AND HE WAS RIGHT TO.

So sure, I realize that the guy you portrayed as the guy I'm not reaching is in your view a delicate little flower that anybody here simply must coddle. I also know he has no fvcking commitment to music really at all. He's committed to bypassing the entire thing of musicianship in favor of getting over. So who the fvck do you think you're kidding here? You look ridiculous.

An argument with you has always reminded me of arguing with rightwing reactionaries with no ideas. Up is down, they (you) function out of an inverse of reality.
My 'presentation' always fails, but the thing you brought in - and I don't even know why - was not even competent at all. So why would I even be interested in what works for you? You'll go on for PAGES trying to make a case for COMPLETE BULLSHIT. So, do I question your integrity? Inasfar as what we have here, what are you integral with? You are singularly intellectually dishonest with me. I think you use your intelligence to bullshit people here (I grant you show a lot of commitment here) and a lot of it has to do with a reaction to me. Don't lie to me about that.

So, you can kiss my ass. I'm not being paid here to deal with impudent children. If I were, I am a professional sort of person and I would have a different persona. I have in fact made my living teaching. People in the real world do not act like they do on the internet, here's a big heads up for you buddy. This is not really the dynamic of teacher/student; you in particular would make this some sort of everybody's everybody else's peer shite anyway.
If someone in a music theory class in Uni pulled this shit they would be summarily dismissed. Let's be the fvck real, ok?

You don't know me at all. You are the one projecting all over the place. Until you spoke up, I would only guess if you understood much of anything here. Because what you do is TOSS. No, once I found you understood exactly how the blues harmonica uses the key a fourth from the actual tonic and conveyed that. That was helpful.

This comes across as kind of an aberrant way to engage me personally. I don't really appreciate this kind of assumed familiarity. Additionally the storytelling; do you mean to say a singularly weak presentation? The feedback I get privately does not accord with your storytelling. That's your problem and not mine. You have a view of me as a person for being bellicose when shit hits the fan. It's kind of funhouse mirrors and I think you're confusing me with you in it.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:30 am

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:34 am

alrighty then

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:54 am

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:59 am

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:07 am

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:20 am

Ok, if the context was deleted, so shall this be.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:36 am

Zane · Post by **Zane** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:31 am

One thing that's been alluded to by me and others but not outright stated is this:

The very concept of modes comes from non-Western music, that is, music without a theoretical need for harmony in the Western sense. Any harmony that arises from true modal music is a consequence of the musicians' instruments themselves (tuning, playing style, overtones emphasized). In modal music in the East, harmony is important, but it's generally not an intellectual pursuit. For example, the oud player tunes a certain way for a certain makam because he's been taught that way, and it sounds good and emphasizes the notes that he wants. That's it. Any attempt to understand true modal music from the standpoint of mapping them to the keys on a piano/transposing them within the common practice tonal system of Western music is doing a great disservice to the original conceptions of those modal traditions.

Zane · Post by **Zane** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:33 am

A big problem with discussions of the Byzantine modes as they are in the current Western tradition is that we seem to have lost all the other knowledge besides the notes themselves that originally went along with them and is needed to actually reproduce them with their original intentions and flavours. Systems like the Arabic maqamat or Turkish Makamlar or the Persian Dastgah have kept this extra knowledge in the form of things like the seyir (path of the melody in Turkish music), and the oral knowledge of the correct flavours (çeşni in Turkish) that need to be played in sequence for the musician to come into alignment with the spirit of the mode/makam/maqam/etc.

Zane · Post by **Zane** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:33 am

We all agree on (hopefully):

Modes are not scales or in a "key" at all.
As has been mentioned as well: There really are many, many more than 8 "modes". The modern Turkish system alone recognizes over 500 makamlar (unique collections of ways of playing a smaller lexicon of flavours).

Though many Western music academics would readily refer to a use of modes in jazz or rock or even some historical use of modes by recognized icons such as Debussy or Stravinsky, once any mode has been combined with Western harmony (whether it's tonal, atonal, pantonal, textural or whatever), it ceases to be modal. Period. Study any one of these forms of modal music in its own environment outside of relative Western influence (if you can), and you will then begin to understand why.

Of course, this last bit is very much my opinion, and I realize I've opened this thread up for more trash talking, sneering, pomposity, and angry typing to correct someone who's wrong on the internet, but I do implore the more open minded to please, please do become just a bit more knowledgeable about a non-Western musical tradition that could be termed modal by learning from an accomplished musician or two (please don't just quote to people from Wikipedia about a musical tradition which you really don't know about). Theory is only theory. Play and really commune with the modes, have real musicians steeped in these non-Western traditions physically show you what they do, then the modes will themselves teach you what you need to know.

MadBrain · Post by **MadBrain** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:50 am

Zane wrote:We all agree on (hopefully):

Modes are not scales or in a "key" at all.
As has been mentioned as well: There really are many, many more than 8 "modes". The modern Turkish system alone recognizes over 500 makamlar (unique collections of ways of playing a smaller lexicon of flavours).

Though many Western music academics would readily refer to a use of modes in jazz or rock or even some historical use of modes by recognized icons such as Debussy or Stravinsky, once any mode has been combined with Western harmony (whether it's tonal, atonal, pantonal, textural or whatever), it ceases to be modal. Period. Study any one of these forms of modal music in its own environment outside of relative Western influence (if you can), and you will then begin to understand why.

Ok. How do you call a western song (with full harmony) where the tonic is E and where the melodic and harmonic notes used are E F G A B C D? This is often referred to as being "in the scale of E phrygian" or "in the mode of E phrygian", and as far as I can see, there's not really any replacement terminology. Tell me how I should call it.

Your thoughts on modes