KVR Audio

alligatorlizard · Post by **alligatorlizard** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:06 pm

Glad I updated my description of what sort of sound I was after with the Human League reference - I think we're all on the same page now. I think that by not being a huge "synth head" (I'm a guitarist Jim, not a keyboard player!) I probably did not describe well what I was after originally. I mentioned The Prodigy & Crystal Method, as they're more the style of music I am working on right now, and from reading interviews I know these guys swear by analogue synths for bass lines. Hence I sort of demo'd Diva on whim (as it's billed as an analogue modeller) and was genuinely surprised by the fact that I did instantly hear a difference. Not saying it's objectively better, just that it fulfils better my expectation of what I want from a synth bass (and of course it's not just a bass synth, it's other sounds are gorgeous too).

For everyone saying "I can't believe you can't get the sounds you want from Trilian/Zebra" - re-read my original post, I basically said the same thing. For years I have thought this, and not looked into other synths as a result. However, though Trilian/Zebra has covered most of my needs for years, there have always been certain situations where I'm just not finding the sound I want, and not been able to quite put my finger on what it is I'm not finding - I guess that sound is the really thick raw analogue sound that Diva models, and that my favourite electronic artists seem to recommend using for bass.

Anyway, enough people seem to agree with what 'm hearing that I'm now re-assured I can trust my ears it's not just that I was seduced by the presets being instantly suitable for my current project. Sounds like Diva is probably exactly what I've been after for years and I should shut up and buy it... I am going to check out some of the other things people have mentioned though first. I think it's definitely the vintage analogue sound I'm liking though so am thinking something like Massive would not be the right choice(?)

Incidentally the bass preset in Diva that I'm particularly liking for this current track is "funk octav" - it's not the fanciest preset, but it's just right. I was originally looking for a sound similar to The Prodigy's "Narayan" - and when put through a bit of fabFilter Saturn multiband tube distortion, I'm getting pretty close with this patch. I'm A/B-ing like crazy between Diva and a whole slew of Trilian/Zebra patches (with similar fx added), and miss Diva everytime it's gone!

If there's one thing I would say negatively about Trilian, it's that its presets are often very showy, lots of gloss and too much going on in the way of modulations and fx - sounds great on it's own (and at NAMM!), and great for soundtrack stuff, but if you need to use it in an actual song, you'll have to remove a lot of the fancy stuff from the nice sounding presets, and by that point I find the sound you're left with can end up just being not that exciting anymore. With Diva, I felt the raw, basic sounds themselves were just more exciting, and sat better in a mix. However, maybe this is all subjective, maybe I've just got retro tastes as far as synth bass goes, or maybe you some of you guys are just able to tweak Trilian/Zebra in ways that I can't? Anyway, need to make a decision by next week, so had better get back to demo-ing the other options... thanks again for all input!

kbaccki · Post by **kbaccki** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:51 pm

Trancit wrote:
Robmobius wrote: Eh 'up... Just curious, who said it 'cant' be done with other software?
I did not write, it was said... but by reading those Diva threads:
1. I get easily this feeling
2. the topic of this thread implies the suggestion... and to be honest again... anybody, who´s not able to get out of Trilian a wished analog synth bass sound has other problems than the need to switch to a different synth...
I am far away of being a fan of Spectrasonic products but for basses, Trilian is a monster, which is capable of doing any kind of satisfying analog synth bass soundwise...

For anybody thinking different, I would really like to hear any proof... till now, there was nothing than hot air

Since we're making lists, I see there being two possible causes of the phenomenon you're experiencing:

1.) Other people hear "things" in Diva, compared to other synths, that just don't exist -- A.K.A Emperor's New Synth Syndrome

2.) You're not able to hear "things" in Diva, and perhaps synths in general, that many others are able to hear

Either outcome is OK. Maybe you don't have the background in synths and hardware that, say, Uncle E has. Or maybe you do your work on crappy laptop speakers or cheap headphones. That's OK too.

Only you can be the judge of whether #1 or #2 applies. There's is no "truth", and as such "proof" can never be provided for that which can't be proven.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:21 pm

I can see why the topic title would make people jump; I kind of like Trilian for 'moogish' bass, as much as I agree with the remark on how what's done to it is crafted to make a splash at NAMM and once you turn the FX off the sound is not necessarily terrific. I don't mind putting my own production on it.
Now, I don't do anything remotely like Human League but I can see what you mean. I just started using Monark, and a lot of that Trilian jive is just not worth trotting out now.
However there are certain things which are unique in it, which is off-topic though.

Monark is the real deal. It's going to suit me very well because I grew up on the minimoog.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:23 pm

kbaccki wrote:. There's is no "truth", and as such "proof" can never be provided for that which can't be proven.

OTOH, people will talk about, for instance the filters and what they actually achieve. Trilian is a sampler with some synth functions. (So is Kontakt.) I don't think that much of Trilian as a synthesizer qua synthesizers, for instance. That's where the argument lies, beyond subjectivity.

Touch The Universe · Post by **Touch The Universe** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:27 pm

Funny I hear all the time how hardware sounds better than software and get 40GB of the best hardware sounds for basses and still not good enough to software synths. Or maybe its a sampling thing?

ThePresent · Post by **ThePresent** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:36 pm

"With Diva, I felt the raw, basic sounds themselves were just more exciting, and sat better in a mix."
Well, I guess that says it all. You make music with the sounds you love.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:48 pm

ThePresent wrote: You make music with the sounds you love.

This!

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:13 pm

alligatorlizard wrote:If there's one thing I would say negatively about Trilian, it's that its presets are often very showy, lots of gloss and too much going on in the way of modulations and fx - sounds great on it's own (and at NAMM!), and great for soundtrack stuff, but if you need to use it in an actual song, you'll have to remove a lot of the fancy stuff from the nice sounding presets, and by that point I find the sound you're left with can end up just being not that exciting anymore.

Eric used to do that with the programming of the old Roland modules, too. The patches on their own sounded amazing from all the effect processing and that sound would disappear when you switched to multi mode (because there was only 1 effects section). The brilliance of that was that everything actually meshed together better with all that processing turned off, like you're saying, and so that system sort of gave you the best of both worlds.

On the other side, I used to know some very famous producers who literally only used Atmosphere (the first incarnation of Omnisphere), Trilogy (the first incarnation of Trilian), and Stylus. They believed the sounds meshed better together than when they brought in instruments from other companies.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:19 pm

jancivil wrote:OTOH, people will talk about, for instance the filters and what they actually achieve. Trilian is a sampler with some synth functions. (So is Kontakt.) I don't think that much of Trilian as a synthesizer qua synthesizers, for instance. That's where the argument lies, beyond subjectivity.

This is a great point. Since the OP has done such a good job of laying out exactly what his goal is, this discussion can be distilled down to "what is most like a Korg 700", and I think it can objectively stated that no one has gone further to the degree of modeling that than u-he has.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:34 pm

mysticvibes wrote:Funny I hear all the time how hardware sounds better than software and get 40GB of the best hardware sounds for basses and still not good enough to software synths. Or maybe its a sampling thing?

Yes, it seems to be a sample thing. I love and use samples A LOT but they do sound static compared to modeling synths.

Uncle E · Post by **Uncle E** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:37 pm

ThePresent wrote:You make music with the sounds you love.

Yeah, that's perfect. I hate that argument of "the end user won't hear it in the mix" because it negates the benefit of using an inspiring, fun instrument.

Vectorman · Post by **Vectorman** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:50 pm

Are there actual multi-sampled complete analog synth bass sounds in Trilian (sampled with the filter/envelopes set) or is it all just raw waveforms from analog synths which are sculpted by Trilian's filters and envelopes? In Omnisphere, the vast majority of analog sounds are raw oscillator samples running through Omnisphere's filters, so you're not just getting the true sound of the original sampled synth - it's a Hardware Synth X/Omnisphere filters hybrid. So if that's the case in Trilian, you're only getting the oscillators of the original synths - not the whole thing.

digitalboytn · Post by **digitalboytn** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:14 pm

kbaccki wrote:
A.K.A Emperor's New Synth Syndrome

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:33 pm

jancivil wrote:
kbaccki wrote:. There's is no "truth", and as such "proof" can never be provided for that which can't be proven.
OTOH, people will talk about, for instance the filters and what they actually achieve. Trilian is a sampler with some synth functions. (So is Kontakt.) I don't think that much of Trilian as a synthesizer qua synthesizers, for instance. That's where the argument lies, beyond subjectivity.

Exactly. The filters in Kontakt are definitely a generation behind NI's best work. They are not at the level of those in Monark. I'm not sure that putting them there would be appropriate yet as it could impact the product negatively. When you hear complaints about Diva it's often about the CPU usage and I expect that for most users/uses of Kontakt there's little advantage to a killer filter that kills CPU.

Spectrasonics has, in my observation, a similarity among its user base. You will often hear their users asserting that the CPU usage is manageable and that's why they like their products. The reality is, there is no free lunch. You cannot have the level of modeling currently demonstrated in products like Diva and Monark without more CPU usage. Yes, that will change, yes, there is more than one way to skin a cat and algorithmic improvement will certainly happen. That's not where we are today, however, and, to my ears, the limitations afforded by weaker filter algorithms are clear in the Spectrasonics products, including Trillian.

Now, before anyone starts getting their panties all in a bunch, from the demos (videos), I actually like Trillian, but not as a synthesizer bass engine. I think that it's strength is in more traditional electric and acoustic bass and Eric Persing's skill with building sampled sounds. I can't really justify it at the price, but I might buy it for those sounds if I were more seriously shopping for that. The filters in Spectrasonic's products are not as good as those in Diva/Monark. Whether that matters for the sounds you like really depends a lot on how much you depend on the filter, and especially its resonance and gain based non-linearities. If most of your sounds are deriving their character from the sample and the filter is just being used gently, then you might not hear the difference.

As Uncle E pointed out though, samples are not modeled oscillators. Again, whether this matters to you depends a lot on the sounds that you're using and how you're using them.

In short: samples != modeled oscillators and not everyone's filters sound as good as the current best of breed. If your plugin is CPU efficient, it probably doesn't sound as good as Diva/Monark.

YMMV.

fluffy_little_something · Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:44 pm

Human League have been around for many years, which of their songs feature the bass you are talking about?

Unsatisfied with Trilian for synth basses - is Diva the best?