One-Synth-Challenge #66: ODsay by Elektrostudio (Keith303 Wins!)

[IrionDaRonin]

Here is a very early submission
...

Great!!!

Don't forget to share here: https://soundcloud.com/groups/kvr-one-synth-challenge

I think I am going to add some more stuff to the track. Do I just delete the old one and share the new one when it's ready? As far as I know, I cannot replace the track with an updated one without a soundcloud pro account, right?

Exactly, you have to delete it if you don't have pro account.
Therefore, you will lost your comments, plays and downloads.

Good luck and have a nice day

[z.prime]

I think I am going to add some more stuff to the track. Do I just delete the old one and share the new one when it's ready? As far as I know, I cannot replace the track with an updated one without a soundcloud pro account, right?

Yep. Can't replace the track without pro; just delete and upload a new submission, re-announce in the forum for good measure.

[z.prime]

I can't imagine the actual Odyssey had that unstable of an oscillator

Have you used any analog gear? I've not used a lot, but definitely used some that gets crazy out of tune. It's very strange... VSTs for me!

[Maomoondog]

So here's my question: Which of the three is the most accurate representation of an actual Arp Odyssey? It seems to me that it's the EO, since the oscillators are way more stable than RAO. However, EO maybe sounds a bit thin -- maybe. ... What do you think?

Certainly an interesting experiment to mess with, comparing the three. I'd say that I mostly prefer the sound of EO, even tho RAO sounds fatter; the oscillator just sounds too unstable with RAO. From what I can tell, the Odyssey had a pretty stable oscillator.

The RAO is based on the MKII Odyssey with the 24db filter designed on Moog synths.

The ES is based on a Mk-1 and the synth school version offers polyphony, something a real Odyssey did not have.

All early analog synths had un stable oscillators and would often drift out of tune

[doctorbob]

Old analogue gear was notorious for going "out of tune". They were pretty unstable and sensitive to temperature variations as well. When I saw TD do a gig in York Minster (1975), they set up their banks of Moog stuff and custom sequencers and set it all running a day before hand. As each module became unstable, the roadies swapped out the module until there was a reasonable set of modules which sort of stayed in tune, and good they were (basically the Ricochet album!!). The very early stuff used simple control voltages, often 1V per octave for keyboard stuff etc, and the crudest used a even simpler resistor chain behind the keyswitches (I know, I made one!). At least using "military grade" components, you stood some chance of a scale! Basically you needed a small trimmer for each note, but that then had knock on effects further down the line ... once digital came along, things got a lot better.

Yup Z, a VST or new digital gear is a dream compared to those days. Mind you, they did have THAT certain sound!!!

db

[artao]

OOPS! I meant Ring Mod, not Resonance LOL .. I edited my post.
I understand old analog synths were unstable, and that's (can be) part of their charm. But the RAO Osc's are REALLY unstable. I don't really mean going out of tune, just that the Osc's are very wavery. From what I've heard of actual vintage Odysseys on the youtuber, they don't have such unstable Osc's ... Just a curiosity really, and neat experiment/comparison. Moot for this contest, obviously LOL

Anyhow, another question:
I'm working in Reaper, and have begun assigning controls on my MIDI controller (Arturia MiniLab) to the various settings I want to "live control" as I play. I've chosen to assign the knobs using Reaper's automation lanes for a couple reasons:
A) It's easier to see and edit the controls I've recorded .. to wit, I can "simplify" the recorded knob movements (reduce points, to create "vectors" rather than discreet point values) to remove any audible "stepping" that occurs due to MIDI CC's being limited to a 0 - 127 range.
B) I found I was unable to assign my desired knobs to the ADSR controls (??!!?! huh?, weird .. anyone else experience this issue?)
However!!! I've discovered that some controls in the ODsay appear to be "hard wired" to certain CC #s .. as such, several of my preferred control assignments are controlling not only what I assigned my chosen knob to, but also whatever ODsay has hard-wired .. Clearly, this is a problem.
Is there a way to FORCE ODsay to forget all hard-assigned CC # controls? ........ I guess my only other option is to go back into my MiniLab software and try to find CC #'s that aren't hard-assigned within ODsay. Which would be a total PITA.

What I'm doing here is that, for one specific track (so far), I've got it set as one of those really cool "auto-run" pseudo-sequencer patches. And that only gets cooler as you tweak the knobs as it auto-runs. I want to record all my knob settings as it plays. So far I've got like 12 automation lanes assigned to various controls that I've found make the changes I want to make with this particular patch. ...... I've only got 16 knobs on my MiniLab (only, LOL) and I already went thru and painstakingly assigned CC # ranges to all my knobs in the MiniLab software. Don't wanna have to do that again just for this track. As I said, real PITA there.

I guess I do have another option to deal with this problem: I could plug in my other MIDI controller and re-assign, via Reaper's automation lanes, the troublesome hard-wired CC # controls to knobs on my other MIDI keyboard. I'm not actually sure that would work tho. ... If I can somehow force ODsay to forget those hard assignments, that would be highly preferable. I imagine ... difficulties ... trying to assign multiple separate MIDI controllers to the same instance of ODsay. .. However, between the two MIDI controllers, I could have up to 32 CC assigned knobs, and 25 buttons!! I guess that would pretty much control the entire instrument.

Hmmm ... were I to do this, and it worked ... Is there some way to SAVE all that hard work to a default, so that any subsequent instance of ODsay already has all MIDI CC #'s assigned?

Thanks ... Long post I know.
Fighting with this issue, I've kinda lost the ... inspiration .. that led me down this path. Messing with technical issues rather than getting on with playing the dang thing.

[Syntilla]

Somewhat related, I've noticed that when ODsay is in Duophonic mode, that I need to have BOTH VCO's audible to actually get duophony. Or am I missing something.

OH!! One last thing I guess .... to the right of the keyboard. The "Mod" and "Rate" knobs .. what exactly are they controlling, and how? Again, I do hear changes when fiddling with them, but don't really get where those changes are coming from or why.

Arp Duo mode isn't quite the same as 2-note polyphony - you get to play the two oscillators, but they share the same envelopes. Kinda handy for giving notes a bit of bite (with ringmod especially) when playing legato-ish - quite a distinctlve Arp 'sound', but don't try any of those Bach 'Inventions' with it!
(The 2600 had something similar, but with 3 oscs; you could tune 2 of them to 5ths, and get triads by playing 3rds. It's a while since I tried any of the emus, but I don't remember any of them implementing that correctly. Yet all the Odys do - with the exception of the SynthSchool, I think.)

Mod and Rate (I haven't got it in front of me, but I think ...) are ES additions - it's a chorus, there's also a delay: neither were on the hardware.

I seem to have deleted half your quote ... I'll take another look, see if I can help ...

[Syntilla]

From what I can tell, the Odyssey had a pretty stable oscillator.

All early analog synths had un stable oscillators and would often drift out of tune

Both true.
The Arps were way more stable than the Moogs.
Personally, I loved the EMS gear - which gives a whole new life to the term 'unstable'. But it wasn't really designed for playing tunes on...
Give TCM another listen - it has modes for the WhiteFace and the 'illegal' Moog filter model, and gets pretty damn close to both (and has a positively subtle 'drift' option) - but no duophony...
But the 2-pole is the one I spent most time on - and it's only the ES that really gives me chills - not something you can see on scopes and meters, but there's real magic in some of his instruments

[Syntilla]

Onward then!! Questions ..
I'm having a bit of difficulty wrapping my mind around how S/H works. It does stand for "sample and hold" doesn't it? .. I get that I can mix 2 switchable sources, and adjust "lag" .. Okay ...
I don't really get what the "LFO Trig/Keyboard Trig" switch does or how I'd use it. Also, I don't really get how S/H affects the FM modulation of the two VCO's .. I mean, I hear that it does affect them, obviously. But I don't really get how it does that.
And then there's S/H affecting the VCF, in two possible ways. The S/H - LFO switch, and the Keyboard CV - S/H Mixer switch ... I particularly don't understand the latter.
Finally, there's the Ring Mod .. I've seen a few patches where neither VCO had any output volume, but the Ring Mod was cranked. .. So the Ring Mod itself can produce audio based upon inaudible inputs from the VCO's? Interesting.
Somewhat related, I've noticed that when ODsay is in Duophonic mode, that I need to have BOTH VCO's audible to actually get duophony. Or am I missing something.

There's an Owner's Manual on the same site as the Patch Book linked on page one of this thread. It's also linked from the VSE Ody page, here:
http://www.vintagesynth.com/arp/odyssey.php
I seem to remember it was quite lucid ...
.. probably make a lot more sense than what I'm about to try an say, but here goes ...

Yep - it's Sample and Hold. The combined waves of the 2 'mixer' inputs is sampled - and held - either each time you press a key, or with each LFO cycle.
That sample - basically just a voltage - is what varies the pitch (i.e. modulates the frequency) of the oscillator.
The 'lag' just smooths the rate of change - if you're sampling noise, or anything at a high LFO rate, for example.
The S&H Mixer is just that: the direct output of the two sources for the S&H - not sampled, not held, just a mix of e.g. Osc1 Saw and Noise.
Finally (unless I deleted something else this time) the ringmod is fed directly from the pulse o/p of both oscillators - before any of them reach the mixer feeding the VCF. It's output doesn't (shouldn't!) include the original waves, but (roughly speaking) their sum and difference frequencies. On the off-chance you'd like to hear them anyway - or their respective Saws - the mixer gives you that option.

[artao]

There's an Owner's Manual on the same site as the Patch Book linked on page one of this thread. It's also linked from the VSE Ody page, here:
http://www.vintagesynth.com/arp/odyssey.php
I seem to remember it was quite lucid ...
.. probably make a lot more sense than what I'm about to try an say, but here goes ...

Yep - it's Sample and Hold. The combined waves of the 2 'mixer' inputs is sampled - and held - either each time you press a key, or with each LFO cycle.
That sample - basically just a voltage - is what varies the pitch (i.e. modulates the frequency) of the oscillator.
The 'lag' just smooths the rate of change - if you're sampling noise, or anything at a high LFO rate, for example.
The S&H Mixer is just that: the direct output of the two sources for the S&H - not sampled, not held, just a mix of e.g. Osc1 Saw and Noise.
Finally (unless I deleted something else this time) the ringmod is fed directly from the pulse o/p of both oscillators - before any of them reach the mixer feeding the VCF. It's output doesn't (shouldn't!) include the original waves, but (roughly speaking) their sum and difference frequencies. On the off-chance you'd like to hear them anyway - or their respective Saws - the mixer gives you that option.

Yeah .. I have found (and referenced) the manuals, but I still don't quite "grok" exactly how the S/H is causing the effects it has. I mean, I can just mess around with the settings until I get something "interesting", but I'd like to have a firmer grasp on the how so I can achieve sounds I'm deliberately seeking. Ya know what I mean?
I guess that will just come with time and experimentation.
Thanks tho, your explanations have helped a bit, particularly in reference to S/H mixer. I wasn't really "getting" that bit.
This thing sure is capable of some surprising sounds. .. Right now I'm trying to figure out exactly why I've got a certain oscillation going on (in conjunction with ring mod) when I don't think I've got any oscillations assigned. I'm guessing it's due to frequency differences.

[Syntilla]

This thing sure is capable of some surprising sounds. .. Right now I'm trying to figure out exactly why I've got a certain oscillation going on (in conjunction with ring mod) when I don't think I've got any oscillations assigned. I'm guessing it's due to frequency differences.

The pulse of oscs 1 and 2 are always assigned to the ringmod.

The 2600 manual has a better introduction to the basic concepts - it's all over the web - here, for example:
https://archive.org/details/synthmanual ... ers-manual

There's also a great book by Sam Ecoff - The Fundamentals of Music Technology - with examples based on the 2600, here:
http://www.samecoff.com/works.html

The 2600 is just a bigger ody, really - so you should be able to follow it OK.

But you're right - keep on tweaking and experimenting: it stays fun forever!

[artao]

Hey! Thanks for the link to the 2600 user manual. That'll come in handy. I've got the Arp 2600VA and quite enjoy messing with it. So far that's all I can really do tho; mess with it. LOL
I hadn't yet thought to search for the manual. D'OH! ... DLed the .pdf
Gotta love archive.org! \o/

[bjporter]

New Requirement:




JK

[Maomoondog]

There is also some information in the comments here http://www.kvraudio.com/product/arppe26 ... en/details

I can guarantee that the Arp2600 is not similar to an Odyssey. Two totally different machines. I owned an Odyssey between 1981-84 and tried out a 2600 around the same time and can confirm that the 2600 is far more flexible due to having all the patching options on hand (the Odyssey is a hard wired synth) The manual may point you towards the fundamentals of analog synthesis, but your far better off getting this manual http://www.arpodyssey.com/oddyman.html or looking through here http://www.arpodyssey.com/manuals.html for more Odyssey related information.

[chilledpanda]

Anyhow, another question:
I'm working in Reaper, and have begun assigning controls on my MIDI controller (Arturia MiniLab) to the various settings I want to "live control" as I play. I've chosen to assign the knobs using Reaper's automation lanes for a couple reasons:
A) It's easier to see and edit the controls I've recorded .. to wit, I can "simplify" the recorded knob movements (reduce points, to create "vectors" rather than discreet point values) to remove any audible "stepping" that occurs due to MIDI CC's being limited to a 0 - 127 range.
B) I found I was unable to assign my desired knobs to the ADSR controls (??!!?! huh?, weird .. anyone else experience this issue?)
However!!! I've discovered that some controls in the ODsay appear to be "hard wired" to certain CC #s .. as such, several of my preferred control assignments are controlling not only what I assigned my chosen knob to, but also whatever ODsay has hard-wired .. Clearly, this is a problem.
Is there a way to FORCE ODsay to forget all hard-assigned CC # controls? ........ I guess my only other option is to go back into my MiniLab software and try to find CC #'s that aren't hard-assigned within ODsay. Which would be a total PITA.

Just assigned 2 korg control 2 to it in Reaper, issues were midi learn doesn't do toggle on the switches and some sliders did seem hardwired, as I didn't want to mess about reassigning CC on the Kontrols, I just set Odsay on same midi channel as keyboard and the midi Kontrols on two other midi channel and then assigned them to each plugin parameter midi learn as it distinguishes channels as well as CC's. Bit of a pita to assign all the controls as it's via reaper menu selection, but saved it as a track template so all good.