Cytomic "The Drop" Resonant Filter

[andy-cytomic]

I would very much prefer a standard serial or license file based form of copy protection (U-he, PSP, 112db, ect) if the current form can't be used anymore. I tend to stay away from dongle and C/R whenever possible. Being able to reinstall my software without contacting anyone (auth limits, ect) is important to me and I would hate to have to stop using and sell my current licenses because of this.

I do trust your ethics Andy, but there are countless examples where customers are left out in the cold due to this type of dependent copy protection after a company closes up shop (even after they promise it won't happen).

As already state lots The worst case backup plan is to release a command line program that runs on your local machine that will generate any number of auths. This is built at the same time, and with the same code, as each plugin release. You will always be able to authorise your software, either through an online server that is still kept running, or a local program.

IU-he seems to have very effective serial number copy protection that is aax compatible. Have you considered contacting Urs about it?

I have contacted Urs to ask how he limits the number of installs for each serial / auth file without involving a server. If he can provide a secure and difficult to crack answer then I will do use it, but that won't be until after this first release as it will delay things further. I am not sure Urs' system offers this functionality, which will mean I can't offer educational and studio site licenses which is really important to me.

I have checked the U-He web page and they have this to say:

"On how many computers can I use my u-he licenses simultaneously?
Licences for our products are issued to you as a person, not to your machine(s).

So you can install, activate and use your u-he products on any computers *you* personally own without having to purchase extra licenses - as long as *you* are the one using them.

Also, we don't differentiate between Mac/OSX and PC/Windows, one license covers all."

So this to me looks like there is no way to limit the number of authorisations possible, so this aspect of his system does not meet my requirements. I do use many methods that Urs has suggested and documented.

I will still let you know what Urs says via email on the topic of how authorisations can be capped without using a server.

[djanthonyw]

Thank you for looking into it, Andy.

[djanthonyw]

The entire system is written for both php and c using standard libraries (openssl), and with each build I also build a command line tool executable for both mac and win that generates authorisation files as a final backup, which in the event of any problems with the cytomic web page and online activations I can distribute to all customers.

This is not a showstopper for me but while we're scrutinizing this, let's consider a scenario where (heaven forbid) you are hit by a bus and suddenly killed. Eventually the Cytomic website would stop working and the customers don't have the command line tool because you can't send it. I can live with this risk but simple serial number copy protection doesn't have this issue.

I agree. He goes and gets himself killed by a bus and I'm out $99. Selfish b*stard.

-Sam

I'd say it's not about the money, but about being used to using specific tools and not wanting to lose access to them. I know Andy is making a promise that an alternative option would be available if an unfortunate circumstance arose, but when an unfortunate circumstance does happen, things could change which would be out of Andy's control and there are MANY cases where this does happen with companies that use such methods of copy protection.

[andy-cytomic]

I'd say it's not about the money, but about being used to using specific tools and not wanting to lose access to them. I know Andy is making a promise that an alternative option would be available if an unfortunate circumstance arose, but when an unfortunate circumstance does happen, things could change which would be out of Andy's control and there are MANY cases where this does happen with companies that use such methods of copy protection.

The Cytomic web page will continue to run for a very long time if anything happens to me. It generates a lot more than USD 10 / month in income, so it is in my wife's and families interest to keep it running! The web page is written using drupal and php and installed on a cpanel setup, which is the most widely used configuration on the planet, so it is trivial to hire a third party to fix anything if something breaks.

djanthonyw: if you feel so strongly then I will not charge any license transfer fees for you, which goes for everyone else as well if you do not want to use the new copy protection system. You have expressed your concerns, and hopefully I have answered them reasonably. I would kindly ask if you stop posting on this topic since no further progress is being made. If you have any further points please email me directly, we can always copy them here if they may be of interest to a wider audience.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[andy-cytomic]

his system is more or less uncrackable.. and it is clear you are doing this so people don't distribute it right? Sure with Urs's method, someone could share their code, but there is more to it as things can be blacklisted, gui melting etc... ultimately it won't stop the few dishonest customers completely but it will stop it being up on the warez sites. (well it will be there, just it will bomb and then be directed to your page for purchase)

Anyway whatever you are comfortable with mate.. personally i would implement ilok eden as that is computer based OR dongle (user choice) and has not been cracked on either platform whatsoever, so is the safest bet. Just a thought.

I have checked with Urs and his system does not allow for a cap on the number of authorisations for a license, so it doesn't meet my requirements.

Unfortunately Pace have repeatedly shown that their system is so secure that paying customers are sometimes locked out of using their own software! With the iLok 2 rollout if customers wanted to authorise one new plugin their entire iLok was spoiled so they had possibly months of down time and were blocked from running all iLok software they paid for. There was no possible "undo" or "rollback" offered, that was it, they were done for. Could they seek any compensation for being blocked like this? No. That is not an acceptable situation to place my customers in, so I won't use their system.

My system may have some delay authorisation of new software, but it won't block you from running software you have already authorised unless you have done a voluntarily drastic operation like format your entire hard drive, or change your main system hard drive. In either situation there is a lot of re-installing to be done, so you know what you are getting yourself into. I will also try my best to even handle these situations if you re-image an existing setup.

If anyone wants to discuss Pace or dongles further then please email me directly so we can keep this thread clear of further ramblings that particular topic

[andy-cytomic]

Thank you for looking into it, Andy.

Urs has confirmed that there is no cap or limit on his plugins, they can be authorised as many times as anyone wants to, and if leaked that same version of the plugin and the key can be used any number of people without limit forever more. I have seen this in the past where software is "cracked" by hacking someones PayPal login, making a purchase, authorising on some dummy email and a name like "My Plugin" and leaked on the net for anyone to use. The person that actually owns the PayPal account forces a charge back (hey they may even be friends than "lent" their PayPal login to the "hacker" - but they can say to PayPal "it wasn't me, honest!") and so the plugin writer has no defense, they are left with an anonymously leaked copy of their software on the net with only wasted time to show for it. If an update is released then the same thing happens rather quickly, perhaps with a stolen credit card number this time.

[sonicpowa]

Thanks Andy for taking care of your customers with a good backup plan for the license authorizations.
I prefer simple license number, but I´m happy with C/R (and thanks for not using ilok).

[TheKid]

Everything but iLok/eLicenser.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Just to steer the conversation back off the topic of C/P schemes and back to the plugin itself:

Will the Oct 3rd release include presets and the planned video tutorials? I can be insanely dense when it comes to anything other than simple LFO modulation, so it'd be nice to get some presets doing cool things and an in-depth tutorial video on how to get the most of the modulation system.

[xiphiuz]

Serious question: what magic is The Drop doing? Particularly on the high-pass filter… I can high-pass pretty much any source, jack up the resonance, and get a FAT sub without any change in level and barely any change in spectral content. It's absolutely unbelievable and I'm curious what's going on w/ The Drop under the hood that other filters aren't doing...

There are around 10 major non-linearities in each 2 pole filter, each of which gently shapes the sound (or no so gently if you drive it into clip!). This means that when the audio gets loud everything bends smoothly and holds together within certain bounds, even with high resonance, this is exactly why people like using analog resonant filters - they sound great! Using a high pass filter as a bass boost is one of the best production uses of The Drop, and one that I have recently given a demo of here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10418006-post956.html

... And what is the drop doing that other filters aren't doing? The Drop is doing what analog filters do since it solves circuits in great detail (apart from the hiss!).

I use this hp/lp "EQ" all the time. And especially this plugin makes it so juicy because of these nonlinearities and drive/distortion. Even better, that's why I bought this in the first place as soon as the beta came out. Btw, whatever you do with C/P, I don't mind. Its the sound that counts and if you make music with it you don't even have time to format your drive and re-install your os of choice.

Another thing: I know its just a few days left, but its really annoying hehe

[MFXxx]

Personally was happywith the serial, but I am sure Andy has his reasons and rationale. I appreciate any dev' protecting their sweat and tears.

Me, prefer iLok "ducks" quite simply never had an issue and stright forward.

[nrosko]

Bit ot but i recently read this article on sos http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug99/a ... ecrets.htm bit of an eye opener in terms of the complexities of a filter. Found it really interesting & wetted my appetite to dig a bit deeper on the subject.

[andy-cytomic]

Just to steer the conversation back off the topic of C/P schemes and back to the plugin itself:

Will the Oct 3rd release include presets and the planned video tutorials? I can be insanely dense when it comes to anything other than simple LFO modulation, so it'd be nice to get some presets doing cool things and an in-depth tutorial video on how to get the most of the modulation system.

This morning I recorded a "rambling rundown" of The Drop v1 as a 40 minute single take screencast, I'll do some minor edits (show / hide my face / push and do some zooms) and upload it tomorrow. Gareth Green (who did the presets for The Glue) has finished the first the first bank of factory presets which will hopefully make it into Friday's release. Half are modulation and half are production, and Gareth really knows his stuff and also gives them great names, so these should be excellent starting points for further exploration.

[Kaboom75]

We getting the new version in VST tomorrow?