morals and money

[donkey tugger]

Hmm, just brushing up on me Kant......

[Karbon L. Forms]

@Karbon L. Forms

Please put some line breaks in that string of E's. It has broken the formatting of the page. Thanks.

Done. Sorry about that. It annoys me as well.

[Karbon L. Forms]

Hmm, just brushing up on me Kant......

Come on the existentialists! Kant, Sartre, Camut, Heidegger (cant spell it sorry), Kierkegard, Forms and now the mighty Tugger?

... it amounts to the same. Absolutly nothing...

The Cure. Killing an Arab. Inspired by Albert Camut's "The Stranger"

[Sicklecell666]

The only people deluded enough to consider the abstraction of a universal moral law are the same ones that try & ram thier god down everyone's throat. But I'll not be so easily baited, rather let me ask you this:

Ignoring humans, where does universal morality come into play in the realm of the animal kingdom? Lioness is starving on the Sarangheti & needs to feed her cubs or they'll die. Zebra has as much right to life as the cubs do, so who has more of a right to live?

There is NO morality in the animal world. You pretty much take what you need & nothing else. It's streamlined to perfection (before our intervention rather..), & life has happily evolved over the last few billion years.

Abstract human thought brought with it curiousity of higher power & calling possibly, but in the beginning, they mostly prayed to the heavens for a bountiful harvest, from a lack of agricultural understanding. They didn't implore the heavens to show them the path of moral high ground, they just wanted food

[Shane Sanders]

Just as a quick challenge, demonstrate for me how a true moral law exists if the universe is only material (atoms, particles, whatever)? Good luck!

if i didn't believe in anything other than me and a material universe, i could still say:

good: what is good for me
bad: what is bad for me

now the question remains: how do i know what is good or bad for me?

i'd have to think, which is a good thing.

sure, that's more demanding than following precepts and rules, but that's more interesting, too.

is that a true moral law from a christian point of view? i guess no.

but that's a real moral law, anyway.

Actually, it's not a moral law at all, but merely one person applying a localized preference to himself. Right?

Here's the rub. A material-only universe cannot give rise to morality or universal moral laws. If it can, the burden of proof is on the challenger to prove that the universe is ONLY material. But I can disprove that in a few sentences: A perfect cube is a concept; it exists outside of my mind whether I contemplate it or not. Where is this perfect cube? What realm does it occupy? One thing is for certain, it's not in the material world. So, right off the bat, we know that our universe is both material and non-material. This is our first big clue as to where morality might also be located.

In a material-only universe, concepts cannot logically exist. They are outside the categories of materialism. This is one of the chief philosophical problems of existence, right?

[Miro]

Fantastic thread.

Morality over cash, eh?:!:

Good for you, vurt

[donkey tugger]

Hmm, just brushing up on me Kant......

Come on the existentialists! Kant, Sartre, Camut, Heidegger (cant spell it sorry), Kierkegard, Forms and now the mighty Tugger?

... it amounts to the same. Absolutly nothing...

The Cure. Killing an Arab. Inspired by Albert Camut's "The Stranger"

Err, actually, I was thinking of Kant more in the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore way.......as in, 'you facking kant'

[Shane Sanders]

Hmm, just brushing up on me Kant......

Come on the existentialists! Kant, Sartre, Camut, Heidegger (cant spell it sorry), Kierkegard, Forms and now the mighty Tugger?

... it amounts to the same. Absolutly nothing...

The Cure. Killing an Arab. Inspired by Albert Camut's "The Stranger"

Err, actually, I was thinking of Kant more in the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore way.......as in, 'you facking kant'

Ever the jester!

[Karbon L. Forms]

Just as a quick challenge, demonstrate for me how a true moral law exists if the universe is only material (atoms, particles, whatever)? Good luck!

if i didn't believe in anything other than me and a material universe, i could still say:

good: what is good for me
bad: what is bad for me

now the question remains: how do i know what is good or bad for me?

i'd have to think, which is a good thing.

sure, that's more demanding than following precepts and rules, but that's more interesting, too.

is that a true moral law from a christian point of view? i guess no.

but that's a real moral law, anyway.

Actually, it's not a moral law at all, but merely one person applying a localized preference to himself. Right?

Here's the rub. A material-only universe cannot give rise to morality or universal moral laws. If it can, the burden of proof is on the challenger to prove that the universe is ONLY material. But I can disprove that in a few sentences: A perfect cube is a concept; it exists outside of my mind whether I contemplate it or not. Where is this perfect cube? What realm does it occupy? One thing is for certain, it's not in the material world. So, right off the bat, we know that our universe is both material and non-material. This is our first big clue as to where morality might also be located.

In a material-only universe, concepts cannot logically exist. They are outside the categories of materialism. This is one of the chief philosophical problems of existence, right?

A concept is just a pattern of electrons in our heads. There will never be perfect cube, just our imagination of one.

[Shane Sanders]

The only people deluded enough to consider the abstraction of a universal moral law are the same ones that try & ram thier god down everyone's throat. But I'll not be so easily baited, rather let me ask you this:

Ignoring humans, where does universal morality come into play in the realm of the animal kingdom? Lioness is starving on the Sarangheti & needs to feed her cubs or they'll die. Zebra has as much right to life as the cubs do, so who has more of a right to live?

There is NO morality in the animal world. You pretty much take what you need & nothing else. It's streamlined to perfection (before our intervention rather..), & life has happily evolved over the last few billion years.

Abstract human thought brought with it curiousity of higher power & calling possibly, but in the beginning, they mostly prayed to the heavens for a bountiful harvest, from a lack of agricultural understanding. They didn't implore the heavens to show them the path of moral high ground, they just wanted food

Your point here is lost on me. If there are objective moral values, then humans are in a different category than other animals BECAUSE of the moral laws.

btw, By declaring that people who contemplate abstract moral laws are deluded, you yourself made an abstraction based upon an implied universal. Surely you see the hypocrisy of this? You cannot clobber words with words, my friend. Peace.

[Spe3D]

This is one topic I cannot win in - I ' don't have the facts real or otherwise to prove it or not.

It's all in your head

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Sicklecell666]

You're all figments of my over-active imagination after having a meatball sub too close to bedtime

[Spe3D]

I’m at risk of being materialistic I reckon – even if I don’t want to admit it or even think it.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Shane Sanders]

A concept is just a pattern of electrons in our heads. There will never be perfect cube, just our imagination of one.

No. no. no. Where then is the concept of "never"? It's not in the material realm, and certainly not merely a pattern in one's head. It's the old philosophical question of whether the sound of the tree falling exists whether there is a conscious being there to witness it or not. But we all know that the sound goes on without us...

[Shane Sanders]

Gotta go vacuum up the dog hairs in the old car so that Bluedad doesn't think I'm a fur trader. Catch the rest of this thread later. Outie-5-G