morals and money

[Rick1114]

I've been facinated lately with Humanism. The idea that it's human nature to separate right from wrong and inherently prefer the good. And there is no need for an EXTERNAL reason for this (religion, higher power etc..),that is natural in human beings when we are in touch with our true nature. We don't need to point outward for a reason. That is not to dismiss our capacity for good/evil which is hard-wired into universal make-up (good/evil, ying/yang, can't have one without the other), but our ability to be intouch with both, and prefer the good, is natural in humanity, when we our in touch with our true selves. This truly resonates with my beliefs, and sort of bridges my limited knowledge eastern and western philosophy somewhat. (Plato married with Daoism?). I apologize for my overly simplified expaination.

Anyway now's not such a hopeful time, but I heard a quote like "when all else fails, man chooses reason" and it seems to make perfect sense especially if you look at US foreign policy, for example. Anyway you may not see the positive outcome in world events or humanity in your lifetime, as 'why' the world operates as it does is beyond human capacity to understand. It's better to accept that, live in the moment make your choices there.

[Sicklecell666]

[quote="Spe3D"]This is one topic I cannot win in - I ' don't have the facts real or otherwise to prove it or not.quote]

Don't feel bad, niether does he, or any of us for that matter. Morality is a state of mind as much as reality is; it's wholely relative to the individual's experience.

Can you honestly say a greatly suffering shcitzophrenic's hallucinations are any less valid than your everyday sight? How do you ascertain that in a quantifiable manner?

How many angels can fit in the eye of a needle for that matter?

[Karbon L. Forms]

A concept is just a pattern of electrons in our heads. There will never be perfect cube, just our imagination of one.

No. no. no. Where then is the concept of "never"? It's not in the material realm, and certainly not merely a pattern in one's head. It's the old philosophical question of whether the sound of the tree falling exists whether there is a conscious being there to witness it or not. But we all know that the sound goes on without us...

Um. Ok there will never be a "never"

All this meta-physical nonsense is in our heads! Where then is the concept of a concept? "Never" is just a lack of somethings ability to appear in the future. Where then is the cocept of "appear"? Where then is the concept of "something"?
It's pointless! Our world view only exsists in our heads.
Where then is the concept of a point?

[1-2-Many]

And take Giant Pandas. What a f**king useless twat of an animal! It's a f**king great bear with great bastarding teeth, but it won't eat bugger all except eucalyptis leaves! And they can only be arsed to shag once every epoch! Quite cute, I agree, but evolution has them in it's sites. Bye bye!

- Pandas don't eat eucalyptis!

THoughts of a Panda - "Humans - what a fuckin useless twat of an animal - destroying everyone else's habitat, killing everything that moves, breeding like fuckin idiots, consuming way more than they need and piling all the leftovers in holes in the ground. I guess they're too stupid to find their own niche and stay there. But oh well, evolution will see to it that they reboot everything back to the precambrian, so it can all start again, and if we're all lucky it'll sidestep these nasty creatures on the next go round....Hmmm time to eat more BAMBOO and ponder......Mmmmmmm bamboo!"

[Wopelka]

Actually, it's not a moral law at all, but merely one person applying a localized preference to himself. Right?

Here's the rub. A material-only universe cannot give rise to morality or universal moral laws. If it can, the burden of proof is on the challenger to prove that the universe is ONLY material. But I can disprove that in a few sentences: A perfect cube is a concept; it exists outside of my mind whether I contemplate it or not. Where is this perfect cube? What realm does it occupy? One thing is for certain, it's not in the material world. So, right off the bat, we know that our universe is both material and non-material. This is our first big clue as to where morality might also be located.

In a material-only universe, concepts cannot logically exist. They are outside the categories of materialism. This is one of the chief philosophical problems of existence, right?

unfortunately, it's difficult for me to have long, philosphical conversations in english.

i am not a materialist myself but you prove nothing with your arguments about the ideal cube. (it sounds like old platonism to me).

the first question should be: what is 'morality'? one could say it is a particularly evolved form of the instinct of conservation coupled with the pressure of the social surrounding. nothing that needs to be seen like a gift from a upper reality.

i'd like to say more, i don't have the time now, but i'll try to make it clearer later.

cheers

[Karbon L. Forms]

And take Giant Pandas. What a f**king useless twat of an animal! It's a f**king great bear with great bastarding teeth, but it won't eat bugger all except eucalyptis leaves! And they can only be arsed to shag once every epoch! Quite cute, I agree, but evolution has them in it's sites. Bye bye!

- Pandas don't eat eucalyptis!

THoughts of a Panda - "Humans - what a fuckin useless twat of an animal - destroying everyone else's habitat, killing everything that moves, breeding like fuckin idiots, consuming way more than they need and piling it all the leftovers in holes in the ground. I guess they're too stupid to find their own niche and stay there. But oh well, evolution will see to it that they reboot everything back to the precambrian, so it can all start again, and if we're all lucky it'll sidestep these nasty creatures on the next go....Hmmm time to eat more BAMBOO and ponder......Mmmmmmm bamboo!"

Aye! Bamboo sorry. They're still f**ked (though not by each other). They'll be gone before we go though. Fluffy pricks. I think the most intelligent species will always be a greedy and destructive one.

[Sicklecell666]

A concept is just a pattern of electrons in our heads. There will never be perfect cube, just our imagination of one.

No. no. no. Where then is the concept of "never"? It's not in the material realm, and certainly not merely a pattern in one's head. It's the old philosophical question of whether the sound of the tree falling exists whether there is a conscious being there to witness it or not. But we all know that the sound goes on without us...

Um. Ok there will never be a "never"

All this meta-physical nonsense is in our heads! Where then is the concept of a concept? "Never" is just a lack of somethings ability to appear in the future. Where then is the cocept of "appear"? Where then is the concept of "something"?
It's pointless! Our world view only exsists in our heads.
Where then is the concept of a point?

'never' is one of those words that help enable a point of view to be sustained when otherwise it would fall flat on it's face. This argument is more or less pointless when words like 'never' are employed.

Every physicist will tell you that the act of observation influences what is observed; if god exists & I make an observation, by extension I am influencing god.

Pretty cool eh?

[vurt]

and when i said i was an atheist i was jokin
im neither here nor there when it comes to gods n such
i believe in something bigger just not something that requires me to pray and such
its to do with mandatory mindsets
i e we need to think of something bigger because it makes our quests seem pointful like for instance if there is no mountain why climb at all?

[Spe3D]

like for instance if there is no mountain why climb at all?

Trees? Palm = coconut

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[vurt]

i dont like coconut but see you prove my point even if there was no such thing as a mountain as humans we have to find some goal to attain
ie godliness,so we put gods on pedestals in the hope of setting standards
its all bloody obvious reall if you get stoned enough

[Spe3D]

I like the dried coconut’s mixed with pineapple and banana oh! and raisins too

But yes, survival is a good point to make.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Meffy]

All of life's questions are answered by the lyrics of popular songs.

"First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is."
-- Donovan

"You put the lime in the coconut
You drink 'em both together.
Put the lime in the coconut,
Then you feel better."
-- Nilsson

"Pandas eat bamboo.
Koalas eat eucalyptus.
Neither is a bear.
Caesar ruled AEgyptus."
-- Meffy

[Spe3D]

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Sascha Franck]

i believe in something bigger just not something that requires me to pray and such
its to do with mandatory mindsets

Amen (err....).
Now, tell that to my GF (she's studying theologics, and yes, she believes in god in a *somewhat* old-fashioned way).

Anyways, if my english was any better, I could say something more.
I believe there's something scientific *facts* will almost never be able to describe - whether this is caused by us humans not being good enough to find out about or whether *it* has it's own will (and therefor just doesn't want to be detected clearly) is another thing we may argue about.

Ever heard about morphic fields? Fantastic stuff that could be expanded into something TRULY weird! Just google up Rupert Sheldrake and such...
(very lousy, very quick bottomline: There's some sort of access to anything anybody ever learned - now expand that and replace "learn" with "think", then replace "think" with "be"...)

As said, my english leaves me at this point, so I'll just continue reading this thread.

[Sicklecell666]

whatcha mean, you're english seems fine to me..anyways..everyone knows god is a coconut.

To each his own, & world without end.