Reason 8 - Official

[eXode]

Here is the post by Chris Randall over at the old PUF. I'll quote it below for your convenience:

I think I can answer this without breaking my NDA. The GUI _creation_ in Re is very difficult, but the GUIs themselves, at the end of the day, are just filmstrips and PNGs, in the same manner that VSTGUI is filmstrips and PNGs.

The kit is designed so that, in the event Props decide to use a different GUI method than the one they are doing, this doesn't affect developers. Props can just render new GUIs for the Rack Extensions in the store, and be on their merry way. The assets we provide are ecumenical in that regard; what we give Props are super high-rez textures and 3D meshes that can be used to make anything. What they're _currently_ doing are making filmstrips and PNGs from these assets. Hope that makes sense.

Now, that said, the API itself bears no resemblance whatsoever to VSTGUI, and as Re devs, we don't have access to the actual machinery of the plug-in. There is no feasible way to wrap these Re devices; they are much more advanced than VST, AAX, and AU; the technology is absolute bleeding edge, as far as what we work with goes. (More future-proofing here.)

Look at it this way: Rack Extensions are highly-educated Swedes with a good job, a nice family, and nationalized health care. VSTs live in a trailer park in Alabama, watch NASCAR, and are married to their 1st cousin. While both are arguably human, in very real terms they simply can't understand one another, and it isn't likely they'd ever be friends.

-Chris Randall
-Audio Damage, Inc.

[EnGee]

Thanks eXode, it was a very nice read

So, they thought ahead of this possibility (changing the style/GUI design). Very good then, I suppose the future versions will concentrate on Workflow/solving GUI size issues. Very good direction indeed, I hope they at least keep the colourful/cheerful environment by choosing the colours wisely (not too bright, not too dark, just a good balanced theme).

[Mr. Fister]

Here is the post by Chris Randall over at the old PUF. I'll quote it below for your convenience:

I think I can answer this without breaking my NDA. The GUI _creation_ in Re is very difficult, but the GUIs themselves, at the end of the day, are just filmstrips and PNGs, in the same manner that VSTGUI is filmstrips and PNGs.

The kit is designed so that, in the event Props decide to use a different GUI method than the one they are doing, this doesn't affect developers. Props can just render new GUIs for the Rack Extensions in the store, and be on their merry way. The assets we provide are ecumenical in that regard; what we give Props are super high-rez textures and 3D meshes that can be used to make anything. What they're _currently_ doing are making filmstrips and PNGs from these assets. Hope that makes sense.

Now, that said, the API itself bears no resemblance whatsoever to VSTGUI, and as Re devs, we don't have access to the actual machinery of the plug-in. There is no feasible way to wrap these Re devices; they are much more advanced than VST, AAX, and AU; the technology is absolute bleeding edge, as far as what we work with goes. (More future-proofing here.)

Look at it this way: Rack Extensions are highly-educated Swedes with a good job, a nice family, and nationalized health care. VSTs live in a trailer park in Alabama, watch NASCAR, and are married to their 1st cousin. While both are arguably human, in very real terms they simply can't understand one another, and it isn't likely they'd ever be friends.

-Chris Randall
-Audio Damage, Inc.

I find his comments hilarious since he's not making RE's anymore.

Is he?

I thought he has since vocally separated himself from Props and "RE's".

Maybe I'm wrong. Anyone?

[loungepanda]

No, you're right. He didn't, and probably still don't, like PHs business-model for REs.

Two things: First, you can't use the free one in Reason, so it might as well not exist as far as you're concerned. While the two are identical sonically, they are not compatible at all, and thus not comparable. Anyone that compares VSTs and AUs (and to a lesser extent RTAS and AAX) with Re is going to walk away disappointed. We don't need to give 30% of anything to anyone for a product we sell in our store. We don't need to do a build every night for a month and stay up until 3AM every day to see if it meets a certain undocumented requirement for a product we sell in our store. We don't have to answer for our pricing model in our store. Every one of our products in our store is compatible with over 80 commercial hosts, with a customer base to match. The Propellerheads store is, in short, the opposite of all that. It is an expensive enterprise for a company with limited resources.

Secondly, the DSP did pretty much drop right in. As I've said many times, the GUI is the sticking point. It is _very_ difficult to make a UI for an Re. You'll notice Sugarbytes only made one for their products. (This is how they were able to have so many at launch.) There is more commonality among the devs as far as the difficulty with the GUI goes, but I can't talk about it due to the NDA. Suffice to say that we all had trouble with it. We're the _only_ devs that were able to turn an Re around quickly (everyone in the store but us had several months to make theirs. We had 4 days from when we received the SDK to the cut-off for initial inclusion) and even then it is only dumb luck that I happened to be fairly familiar with many of the parts of the kit to begin with, because I have a lot of experience with 3D modeling software.

-Chris Randall
-Audio Damage, Inc.

The lack of flexibility (and profit) is probably also what is preventing other developers from porting their plugins over to Reason.

[eXode]

I find his comments hilarious since he's not making RE's anymore.

Is he?

I thought he has since vocally separated himself from Props and "RE's".

Maybe I'm wrong. Anyone?

His point (albeit with a bad choice of words) was to illustrate how different RE and VST are.

Also, we were discussing his comment about the graphical content creation process for RE's and how it ties in to the "future proofing" aspect of RE's.

I fail to see how it would be any less relevant regardless of what he's doing now. The differences are there all the same, as is the GUI creation process.

[stroker_ace]

I find his comments hilarious since he's not making RE's anymore.

Is he?

I thought he has since vocally separated himself from Props and "RE's".

Maybe I'm wrong. Anyone?

I vaguely remember a bit of a stink. I think he didn't appreciate the grief he got for charging for the RoughRider rack extension, which was a free VST......as if he's supposed to work for free.

There were other issues, too (you might want to skip this bit, fanboys)...

To put the pricing in perspective, Rough Rider VST/AU, which we give away free in lieu of advertisement (we could easily charge for it) took us about 2 days to make. The Rack Extension took us, all told, a month. This is two highly educated, highly trained professional people that bill out at over $100/hr each for contract work, working full time for a month to make this. While I'd like nothing more than to offer it for free just like the VST, the simple fact of the matter is that we price something by what we expect to make from it over time versus our cost to make it.

That month we spent we could have made a new VST3/VST/AU product, which would have _DEFINITELY_ made us a hundred thousand dollars over the course of a couple years, including a huge dump of money on its first day of release due to our lack of demos. With the 30 day demo policy, plus the 45 day turn-around on payment from Props, plus their 30% cut, we're making US$19 per unit, some day a couple months from now.

and......

Two things: First, you can't use the free one in Reason, so it might as well not exist as far as you're concerned. While the two are identical sonically, they are not compatible at all, and thus not comparable. Anyone that compares VSTs and AUs (and to a lesser extent RTAS and AAX) with Re is going to walk away disappointed. We don't need to give 30% of anything to anyone for a product we sell in our store. We don't need to do a build every night for a month and stay up until 3AM every day to see if it meets a certain undocumented requirement for a product we sell in our store. We don't have to answer for our pricing model in our store. Every one of our products in our store is compatible with over 80 commercial hosts, with a customer base to match. The Propellerheads store is, in short, the opposite of all that. It is an expensive enterprise for a company with limited resources.

Secondly, the DSP did pretty much drop right in. As I've said many times, the GUI is the sticking point. It is _very_ difficult to make a UI for an Re. You'll notice Sugarbytes only made one for their products. (This is how they were able to have so many at launch.) There is more commonality among the devs as far as the difficulty with the GUI goes, but I can't talk about it due to the NDA. Suffice to say that we all had trouble with it. We're the _only_ devs that were able to turn an Re around quickly (everyone in the store but us had several months to make theirs. We had 4 days from when we received the SDK to the cut-off for initial inclusion) and even then it is only dumb luck that I happened to be fairly familiar with many of the parts of the kit to begin with, because I have a lot of experience with 3D modeling software.

It's obvious to me that quite a few devs have been beaten down by the 1-2 punch of the GUI rules/restrictions ("It is very difficult to make a UI for an Re", and "...we all had trouble with it...") and the lack of sales, and have put rack extensions in the "simply not worth it" category.

It's also obvious to me that Props' lack of communication isn't just with their users; it's with 3rd-party devs, too ("...a certain undocumented requirement..."). One can't help but wonder how many devs and potential devs they've lost because of this lack of communication. Quite a few, I imagine, as devs obviously talk to each other at various trade shows and such, and word gets around.

And keep in mind that he posted all of these things publicly, while under an NDA; imagine what he has to say in private after a few drinks!

The RoughRider rack extension was released over two years ago, at or near launch, and they haven't released another. I think it's safe to say they're out.

They were, like quite a few others, "one and done".

[eXode]

You're quoting stuff that happened 2 years ago, when the SDK was new. Obviously I can't comment on it any further, but if that was the case back then when it was still in it's infancy, it's pessimistic at best, to think that it hasn't changed since.

Dev's coming and going is nothing unusual imho as people explore possible ventures, if I was a VST developer I would be crazy to not even check RE out if it would mean more revenue depending on the work load required. Otoh, how can all those indie RE developers cope with the GUI process if it's so difficult?

Anyway, I referenced Chris Randall's post with regards to his comments on the GUI creation process, and the likelihood that RE developers doesn't need to worry about having to redesign their GUI's once Reason will go full HD/Retina support.

[trimph1]

Yeah, well, it may just be that RE's are expensive that might scare off some devs but porting something over to another platform is always a risk. PC...Cakewalk's sonar extension is there as well.

Although one can has great deals on those..

[Mr. Fister]

You're quoting stuff that happened 2 years ago, when the SDK was new. Obviously I can't comment on it any further, but if that was the case back then when it was still in it's infancy, it's pessimistic at best, to think that it hasn't changed since.

Dev's coming and going is nothing unusual imho as people explore possible ventures, if I was a VST developer I would be crazy to not even check RE out if it would mean more revenue depending on the work load required. Otoh, how can all those indie RE developers cope with the GUI process if it's so difficult?

Anyway, I referenced Chris Randall's post with regards to his comments on the GUI creation process, and the likelihood that RE developers doesn't need to worry about having to redesign their GUI's once Reason will go full HD/Retina support.

Dude...

You're ALSO quoting stuff that is 2 years old!!I see what you're trying to do with your quote regarding the GUI, but its completely backfiring on you to even mention Chris "Im a d-bag" Randall. He's a douche, but still.....You're also quoting stuff that is 2 years old. Period.

I don't think you're considering his opinion on RE's since he made that stupid comment about Swedes and all that BS. Is he still around? No, he's not.

You're really living in some kind of delusion: If you were a VST dev, you'd be crazy not to look at RE?? Dude, try actually talking to any devs of RE's = Even when one guy like the person youre trying to use as an example has already jumped ship after ONE RE, you'll still stand there thinking it's some HUGE money maker??

We see you're using his quote to illustrate about the GUI - We see that.

Have you thought the rest of it out? Have you thought of his CURRENT opinion of RE's? Lol...it's like most devs except Softtube = "Not worth it".

You should try quoting people who got involved with Props and are still happy about it instead of people who have seen the light and ran away.

[napishu]

The sequencer is definitely too bright. Its really weird how it just hits you when you switch from the rack to it. I will be sending them a request on their feedback page to tone it down a bit. I actully think it would have been cool if they used the colors of Figure for the sequencer.

+ 1. I want dark gui like Logic, Bitwig. In the evening and in general it is very difficult for the eyes. But apparently it will never happen because PROPS worried about the sale of their RE

[EnGee]

Well, I was concerned about one point, as eXode answered me, and that was the GUI flexibility in the Current SDK.

If we want to have good conclusions, then we need to discuss all the points depending on factual/scientific information and let our emotions aside.

Our needs and usage are different, so some points are affecting us directly and some indirectly. For my usage of Reason, I won't use it as a standalone DAW only because I don't have all the REs that covers NI Reaktor or Acoustic Drums (I'm not saying there isn't any RE or ReFill in their shop, but in my setup). So, what's important for me then? the important things are already there (Stability, CPU Usage, and cables!).

The improvements that I would like to see in future versions, are in GUI and Workflow (including more Midi editing control, like Shift + Arrow = one octave below or above, or Velocity editing like in Sonar ...etc). I also would like to be able to audition Midi files and choose the instrument to review them before I drag and drop them into the Sequencer, oh and I don't want a new ID8 instrument every time I insert a midi file!)

All the above are "Personal" needs might some of you have the same or not at all. But for General Audience (includeing the developers), there are many points that could direct the future of Reason. The most important point that I have noticed in many Companies/Leaders/People is they begin to fall when they consider the General Public "Stupid" or "Sheep" ..etc. Anyway, let's get into the points that I see the keys in more or less successful Reason:

- Development of RE. They need to convince developers to invest in this technology. I'm not RE developer, so I know nothing about this. But in general it is a balance between effort, profit and result's satisfaction what will attract the developers. So, the decision that affect the profit are: 1. VST like freedom in developing and selling 2. Keep the Central shop with marginal profit cut. For the effort, that would be related to how good the SDK is and how easy to port the VST plugins to the RE platform. In the end, if the developers can't reach their goal and the final product is not up to the expectations, then that would not give them strong motives for future releases.

- Development of Reason itself: GUI, workflow, additional tools, stability, ...etc. Here many subjective opinions can be expressed but in general, no one is complaining about stability or cpu usage. More enhancements can be done of course and this is what we (the users) hope for.

Developers are just people, so they could be very excited about a new technology when it comes, then change their minds after some time. They might all agree on some points, and might disagree on others. So, I don't take just one developer as an example for all others. The best indication would be the RE shop itself, if the growing ratio is very slow, then this might be indication of a problem.

I just hope that PH managers take wise decisions. It is a very competitive market and there are great DAWs out there. When I first started in the mid/late 90's, I had only two choices "Steinberg Cubase or Emagic Logic". It is not like that anymore.

[eXode]

You're quoting stuff that happened 2 years ago, when the SDK was new. Obviously I can't comment on it any further, but if that was the case back then when it was still in it's infancy, it's pessimistic at best, to think that it hasn't changed since.

Dev's coming and going is nothing unusual imho as people explore possible ventures, if I was a VST developer I would be crazy to not even check RE out if it would mean more revenue depending on the work load required. Otoh, how can all those indie RE developers cope with the GUI process if it's so difficult?

Anyway, I referenced Chris Randall's post with regards to his comments on the GUI creation process, and the likelihood that RE developers doesn't need to worry about having to redesign their GUI's once Reason will go full HD/Retina support.

Dude...

You're ALSO quoting stuff that is 2 years old!!I see what you're trying to do with your quote regarding the GUI, but its completely backfiring on you to even mention Chris "Im a d-bag" Randall. He's a douche, but still.....You're also quoting stuff that is 2 years old. Period.

I don't think you're considering his opinion on RE's since he made that stupid comment about Swedes and all that BS. Is he still around? No, he's not.

You're really living in some kind of delusion: If you were a VST dev, you'd be crazy not to look at RE?? Dude, try actually talking to any devs of RE's = Even when one guy like the person youre trying to use as an example has already jumped ship after ONE RE, you'll still stand there thinking it's some HUGE money maker??

We see you're using his quote to illustrate about the GUI - We see that.

Have you thought the rest of it out? Have you thought of his CURRENT opinion of RE's? Lol...it's like most devs except Softtube = "Not worth it".

You should try quoting people who got involved with Props and are still happy about it instead of people who have seen the light and ran away.

So what? Regardless of Randall's stance on the format, he described how the GUI portion of RE is future proofed, and that was what we were discussing before you chimed in. The future proofing of the RE GUI hasn't changed even if his thoughts on the platform has (the RE GUI future proof is not an assumption, that is something I know about, read into that what you will).

Also, I have never claimed that RE's are a HUGE money maker. Where did I say that?

"if I was a VST developer I would be crazy to not even check RE out if it would mean more revenue depending on the work load required"

That is MY opinion. If I ran a business making plugins I'd definitely explore my option to broaden my market. Isn't that the point of running a business? To make a money (or more money)? You'd make an assessment of workload vs possible return in investment, and then you make a decision based on that assessment, simple as that.

[eXode]

Well, I was concerned about one point, as eXode answered me, and that was the GUI flexibility in the Current SDK.

If we want to have good conclusions, then we need to discuss all the points depending on factual/scientific information and let our emotions aside.

- Development of RE. They need to convince developers to invest in this technology. I'm not RE developer, so I know nothing about this. But in general it is a balance between effort, profit and result's satisfaction what will attract the developers. So, the decision that affect the profit are: 1. VST like freedom in developing and selling 2. Keep the Central shop with marginal profit cut. For the effort, that would be related to how good the SDK is and how easy to port the VST plugins to the RE platform. In the end, if the developers can't reach their goal and the final product is not up to the expectations, then that would not give them strong motives for future releases.

- Development of Reason itself: GUI, workflow, additional tools, stability, ...etc. Here many subjective opinions can be expressed but in general, no one is complaining about stability or cpu usage. More enhancements can be done of course and this is what we (the users) hope for.

Developers are just people, so they could be very excited about a new technology when it comes, then change their minds after some time. They might all agree on some points, and might disagree on others. So, I don't take just one developer as an example for all others. The best indication would be the RE shop itself, if the growing ratio is very slow, then this might be indication of a problem.

I just hope that PH managers take wise decisions. It is a very competitive market and there are great DAWs out there. When I first started in the mid/late 90's, I had only two choices "Steinberg Cubase or Emagic Logic". It is not like that anymore.

I don't envy propellerheads with this endeavour that they have taken on with RE's. It's quite a feat regardless if you're a relatively small Swedish company or backed by Roland or Yamaha. I guess we will all see how it pans out in the end.

[KarmaShaman]

Are you kidding? RE's are an evergreen money tree for Propellerhead.

[CrazyLittleSomething]

"Rack Extensions are highly-educated Swedes with a good job, a nice family, and nationalized health care."
[mod edit - hpc material, keep it out of this thread]