Reason 8 - Official

[KarmaShaman]

I just laughed the balls out of my pants.

[stroker_ace]

You're quoting stuff that happened 2 years ago, when the SDK was new. Obviously I can't comment on it any further, but if that was the case back then when it was still in it's infancy, it's pessimistic at best, to think that it hasn't changed since.

We don't need you to comment on it any further, sweetie; Urs from U-he already has, the filthy pessimist!

I hope a post from less than six weeks ago (August 30th, 2014) is fresh enough for you...

Well, nothing has changed - we have a Satin RE that's nearly ready for beta testing, but it crashes for reasons we have not been able to figure out.

Apart from Bazille and Presswerk our current project is "finding odd bugs and fixing them once and for good". In the meantime we've updated a lot of things and we've fixed a lot of bugs and niggles. We have not yet reached a state where we're happy to wrap things up. This is why Bazille and Presswerk - both technically finished - haven't been released.

Once this is over, we'll give Satin RE another shot. If it still compiles and if it becomes workable/debuggable then we'll follow through with it. If changes to the RE SDK require another month or two of work or if there are other factors of uncertainty, then we'll push it back until we can afford the expense.

Note that we have 10 employees on the payroll now, and our 9 REs together contribute less than 2% to revenues. We have to spend our time responsibly, and we have already lost a year or more just porting things to VST2 64-bit Mac, AAX (+ PACE signing), RE, VST3 (disaster!), signed AU, signed installers, Mavericks. We're fed up with plug-in format issues. We would like to spend some quality time with creative tasks rather than compatibility issues. Unfortunately RE has always involved tedious updates to the SDK and approval rules...

Cheers,

- Urs

http://goo.gl/XqEBRB

Ya wanna rethink that "evergreen money tree" statement, KS?

[SeePlusPlus]

do REs auto compensate for latency now?
(when rendering at least)

[eXode]

You're quoting stuff that happened 2 years ago, when the SDK was new. Obviously I can't comment on it any further, but if that was the case back then when it was still in it's infancy, it's pessimistic at best, to think that it hasn't changed since.

We don't need you to comment on it any further, sweetie; Urs from U-he already has, the filthy pessimist!

I hope a post from less than six weeks ago (August 30th, 2014) is fresh enough for you...

http://goo.gl/XqEBRB

Ya wanna rethink that "evergreen money tree" statement, KS?

And exactly how, in your mind, does Urs post relate to my comments about the RE GUI being future proofed? Maybe you should read what the discussion is about before commenting? We were simply discussing that a developer of an already made, approved RE, does not need to worry about updating/redoing the gfx when props decide to go HD/Retina in the rack. Nothing more, nothing less.

[lotus2035]

mod edit- not appropriate to this discussion, agreed leave it for hyde park

Keep this garbage for Hyde Park.

[KarmaShaman]

Ya wanna rethink that "evergreen money tree" statement, KS?

Ya wanna reread my statement? It is in reference to Propellerhead, not individual developers. And it's not purely on the RE sales, but the model of forcing customers to remain within the loop or lose their invested dollars. Mandatory retention equals ongoing profit.

I'm well aware that the 3rd party guys are being f**ked over. One popular developer went so far as to say that he makes less money per RE sales than Props do on transactions.

[stroker_ace]

You should try quoting people who got involved with Props and are still happy about it instead of people who have seen the light and ran away.

Yeah, I'd love to read those quotes, too. Maybe try Rob Papen; he's still on the rack extension train.

The most positive thing I've heard about rack extensions from a 3rd-party dev was from Dave from GForce, on one of the Sonic State podcasts, and even that wasn't much: he was kind of cautiously optimistic, in a "some time down the road" kind of way. And this wasn't at rack extension launch; I think this was less than a year ago.

Meanwhile, GForce is, at this juncture, another "one and done" rack extension developer (Re-Tron). There's apparently another one that was in the works, but the SDK wasn't up to snuff, so it had to be shelved.

And I don't know if the SDK still isn't up to snuff, or they've lost interest, or they're too busy, or they're disenchanted with the process and possible profits to get it off the back burner, or what, but it's still not in the shop.

The sad thing is, a lot of 3rd-party devs can't even do 1:1 ports of existing plug-ins due to SDK limitations. G-Force had to water down M-Tron Pro and call it Re-Tron (which can't accept any of the awesome-sounding expansion packs). Korg had to chop off the effects section of Mono/Poly and the Chord function of Polysix.

These aren't exactly cutting edge plug-ins we're talking about here.

And speaking of Korg, they tweeted something to the effect of "expect big things from Korg rack extensions in 2013!" at the end of 2012. In the summer of 2013, Mono/Poly showed up (sans effects), and.........that was it, and nary a peep since.

"things" obviously implies more than one rack extension, and we have no way of knowing if Mono/Poly was one of the "big" things they were talking about. Perhaps that was a "small" thing (and imo, a not-quite-1:1 port of a VST that's several years old is a small thing), and the "big" ones never came off. For all we know, there are 2-3 Korg rack extensions languishing in development purgatory, waiting for SDK improvements.

Or they may have washed their hands of the format altogether.

The funny thing is, when GForce was announced as part of the first group of 3rd-party rack extension developers, and rack extensions were getting close to launch, Dave had expressed the possibility that TWO GForce rack extensions could be available at launch.

I don't know how things went from that hope to the back of a milk carton for two years and four months (and counting)!!!, but they did.

If that isn't a major bungling of a situation, I don't know what is.

And then there's the saga with U-he's Satin (and they're chopping off the effects from that, too!). Given Urs' rather bleak assessment of the situation, I don't see that making it to the shop this year, if ever.

And Urs has said that Satin is their last chance to make rack extensions work for them.

[stroker_ace]

Ya wanna rethink that "evergreen money tree" statement, KS?

Ya wanna reread my statement? It is in reference to Propellerhead, not individual developers. And it's not purely on the RE sales, but the model of forcing customers to remain within the loop or lose their invested dollars. Mandatory retention equals ongoing profit.

Nobody's "losing their invested dollars", and there's no "mandatory retention" going on. I've given up on Reason, but I can still use it, and all the rack extensions I bought.

Nothing is stopping anybody from simply walking away, and many have.

There are also those who have refused to buy any rack extensions from day one because they disliked the model.

But there was one upgrade that was required if you wanted to run SDK 2.0 rack extensions......and yes, that was a really shady move, imo.

But if U-he isn't selling many rack extensions, I don't think many people are. They're high-quality, low-cost, very creative and flexible tools.

But if you think Props' is getting rich taking 30% from the sales of a couple hundred licenses of €7.50 CV utility rack extensions, knock yourself out.

Yes, there will always be the Reason-zombies, but I think you greatly overestimate their numbers, not to mention the size of their wallets: from what I've seen, they're an extraordinarily cheap bunch.

And I think you underestimate the average user's intelligence to know when he's being had, or has had enough, and act accordingly.

[Mr. Fister]

Maybe Karma Shaman was joking. I took it as sarcasm, about the money tree.

[trimph1]

Yeah. I think of it as sarcasm.

But the idea of a closed loop business model is nothing new...

[Mr. Fister]

It's not, but peeing in the ocean to raise the tide isn't smart either.

[KarmaShaman]

[quote="stroker_ace"]
Nobody's "losing their invested dollars", and there's no "mandatory retention" going on. I've given up on Reason, but I can still use it, and all the rack extensions I bought.

Nothing is stopping anybody from simply walking away, and many have.

It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who replies with irrelevant comments, as if they haven't even read the post they are responding to. I see you have ignored being called out on that TWICE.

Anyway let's push on. Please read the words that are written if you plan on debating further.

Perhaps 'mandatory' was not the most ideal word to use, but the closed loop is effectively a 'lock in' for most people who have no interest in working in a multi-DAW environment. If the single-DAW users, who in their right mind would retire using Reason if they have invested in RE's? Perhaps you're assuming this to be from the point of disgruntled users... it's not. The statement is based on the profitability model.

A person who owns a DAW is most likely to want plugins.

A person who owns Reason is obliged to satisfy that need/want with Rack Extensions

A person who has invested hundreds, perhaps thousands into that system (a system by which RE's are not resellable) is unlikely to abandon the software. What does she/he do ? Stick with their DAW of choice, and inevitably keep buying RE's that interest them. For Propellerhead, it is the gift that keeps on giving.

You also make assumption of the entire RE range, and it's success, based on U-He's 2%. Why ? I have absolutely no interest in the U-He range. There's no 'gold standard' by which each user is adhering to.

For me, I am of the mind that creativity can be unleashed with the onboard stock devices and patches... but you know what? Almost without being aware of the number until I checked a minute ago, I have EIGHT 3rd party RE's. There's another few on my 'want' list that immediately spring to mind, and probably another five if I thought about it some more. And I'm not even one of those 'collectors' who feel they need as many tools as possible... yet within 6 months I will probably have amassed more that 15 Rack Extensions.

Why would I drop my DAW of choice, when I have put money into it, over and above the upgrade price? Props have got me by the balls (metaphorically speaking). Why would those more dedicated users who might have double, triple that amount, walk away?

For as long as this clever method of customer retention is in place, people will keep spending. And when Props is the only store in town, it's a 100% marketshare.

Take a look at the gushing excitement at some of the silly toys that have been released lately. Folks (the Reason Zombies) are buying ANYTHING it seems. And Props get their pound of flesh on every single sale for doing little more that providing a platform in which to host these.

That's my two bobs worth. I'm off to buy a Polar licence since I won't be upgrading to v8.

[stroker_ace]

Still think he was being sarcastic with that "evergreen money tree" statement, fellas?

[KarmaShaman]

*she

[Mr. Fister]

Still think he was being sarcastic with that "evergreen money tree" statement, fellas?

Yes, I do O.o

Have the interwebs gone nuts or am I seeing people debating lately when they're actually already in agreement on something?

Has my comprehension gone through the floor? I'm still detecting a veritable truckload of sarcasm in Karma Shaman's post....