Reason 8 - Official

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[stroker_ace]

Nobody's "losing their invested dollars", and there's no "mandatory retention" going on. I've given up on Reason, but I can still use it, and all the rack extensions I bought.

Nothing is stopping anybody from simply walking away, and many have.

It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who replies with irrelevant comments, as if they haven't even read the post they are responding to. I see you have ignored being called out on that TWICE.

"called out" by who?!? A Reason fan-boy who couldn't keep up with the conversation (he claimed it was about future-proofing, and I capped that argument in the knees by saying there may not be a future to proof! notice he didn't actually go near any of my points, because he would have looked like an even bigger fool), and a guy who can't even quote properly?!?

If you want to play the numbers game, Stalin, you made a statement so dumb that TWO people thought you were being sarcastic.

I've addressed the issues raised and tried to broadened the discussion. It's not on me if you guys can't keep up, or don't want to face the truth.

Anyway let's push on. Please read the words that are written if you plan on debating further.

full disclosure: I'm not really interested in debating you so much as making you look like a fool to the other people reading this.

fuller disclosure: you're doing half the job for me.

Perhaps 'mandatory' was not the most ideal word to use, but the closed loop is effectively a 'lock in' for most people who have no interest in working in a multi-DAW environment. If the single-DAW users, who in their right mind would retire using Reason if they have invested in RE's? Perhaps you're assuming this to be from the point of disgruntled users... it's not. The statement is based on the profitability model.

1. I think you completely underestimate the number of people who use more than one DAW. Even most Reason-zombies seem to have at least one other DAW. Go ahead and ask them......if you dare!

2. Call me nutty then, because I left Reason after dumping about 700-800 euros into rack extensions. Regrettable, but since I have a job, it's not the end of the world.

I'll cash out if rack extension licenses become transferable. If not, I can always use ReWire if I get a hankering to use Reason devices, or actually use Reason itself, and just export .wav files into Studio One.

Or I could just not use it again.

If you go 5 miles up the wrong road, most people, myself included, would think going 5 miles further up it would be insane, rather than admitting your mistake, turning around, and finding the right road for your journey.

And you're not taking into account how cheap, easy, and basically no-risk it is to get into another DAW. I bought Studio One Professional for $129, I think. And since then I've bought maybe $1,500-$2,000 worth of VST instruments and effects.

I could get at least 75% of that money back tomorrow, and it would probably be closer to 100%, because I bought everything on sale/secondhand, and almost everything is transferable.

So why wouldn't anybody (with a job) jump if they felt "trapped" or "locked in" by Reason and their Draconian business model?!?

I don't know what world you're living in, but everybody who makes music isn't a poverty-stricken lemming-idiot.

A person who owns a DAW is most likely to want plugins.

A person who owns Reason is obliged to satisfy that need/want with Rack Extensions

With MIDI out came the ability to use standalone instruments and effects with Reason. I was using Addictive Drums, Chromaphone, the NI instruments, Guitar Rig, and Amplitube with Reason before I made the jump. Since I'm on a PC, it took a second sound card, but it worked perfectly for me.

If you'd like to split hairs, and I'm sure you'd like to, no, those aren't technically plug-ins, as they don't work IN Reason, but WITH it, which was workable for me.

And it was a really nice "bridge" to make the leap from, actually, as I was still using Reason, but I had stopped buying rack extensions for at least my last six months of using it, and was buying VSTs.

But the pull of VSTs that couldn't also operate in standalone mode became too strong.

So I dumped Reason once and for all, and I haven't put a penny into it since.

The joy of using VST instruments and effects far outweigh any regret I have over spending 700-800 euros on rack extensions.

A person who has invested hundreds, perhaps thousands into that system (a system by which RE's are not resellable) is unlikely to abandon the software. What does she/he do ? Stick with their DAW of choice, and inevitably keep buying RE's that interest them. For Propellerhead, it is the gift that keeps on giving.

I heard you the first time.

You also make assumption of the entire RE range, and it's success, based on U-He's 2%. Why ? I have absolutely no interest in the U-He range. There's no 'gold standard' by which each user is adhering to.

I never said they were any kind of "gold standard"; I said they were low-cost, high-quality effects, which they are. And it was slim pickins in the early days of the rack extension shop; the Uhbiks were definitely a welcome sight for most.

And there have been several indicators from several different third parties that rack extensions are not doing well.

For me, I am of the mind that creativity can be unleashed with the onboard stock devices and patches... but you know what? Almost without being aware of the number until I checked a minute ago, I have EIGHT 3rd party RE's. There's another few on my 'want' list that immediately spring to mind, and probably another five if I thought about it some more. And I'm not even one of those 'collectors' who feel they need as many tools as possible... yet within 6 months I will probably have amassed more that 15 Rack Extensions.

Why would I drop my DAW of choice, when I have put money into it, over and above the upgrade price? Props have got me by the balls (metaphorically speaking). Why would those more dedicated users who might have double, triple that amount, walk away?

Again; I heard (and answered) you the first time.

"Oh, my God: I've spent $500 on rack extensions! I'm in their prison-hell forever!!!". What are you, a 12-year-old with a paper route, putting a few quarters in his piggy bank once a week?!? $500 is some sort of earth-shattering amount to you?!?

Do you know the punchline to the old joke "why is divorce so expensive?"?

because it's worth it

For as long as this clever method of customer retention is in place, people will keep spending. And when Props is the only store in town, it's a 100% marketshare.

Yeah, but of a dwindling marketplace, imo. I think more people are wising up and leaving, or they're not buying any more rack extensions, or, at the very least, they're not spending at the rate they did when rack extensions first launched.

Most Reason users are going to say themselves, if they haven't already: "my rack's full! I don't need a 5th reverb or a 6th delay".

And that's when Props will make rack extension licenses transferable, because they'll have to.

Take a look at the gushing excitement at some of the silly toys that have been released lately. Folks (the Reason Zombies) are buying ANYTHING it seems. And Props get their pound of flesh on every single sale for doing little more that providing a platform in which to host these.

That's my two bobs worth. I'm off to buy a Polar licence since I won't be upgrading to v8.

There's gushing, and then there's buying, and if they were buying as much as they were gushing we'd see a lot more 3rd-party devs jumping on the rack extension train, imo.

I know your point is that while 3rd-party devs might not be raking in the cash, Props is, but I disagree.

And if they lose developers.........and it seems like they are.........the amount they are raking in will obviously go down.

[Mr. Fister]

YAY!

I get to make popcorn AND read!!1

[KarmaShaman]

Still think he was being sarcastic with that "evergreen money tree" statement, fellas?

Yes, I do O.o

Have the interwebs gone nuts or am I seeing people debating lately when they're actually already in agreement on something?

Has my comprehension gone through the floor? I'm still detecting a veritable truckload of sarcasm in Karma Shaman's post....

Theres a veritable load of SOMETHING in this thread.

I think where the problem lies is that too many people are eager to 'whack it out' without properly reading the comments they reply to. We get it boys, your opinions are gold.

I'm still bemused by the widespread assumptions people make that Im a Reason Hater. Couldnt be further from the truth. Its the Propellerhead company and their shady ethics that I have issue with - and the impact their clever campaigns have had on the devotees. If I read one more time how great the PWYW deal was.... in a REASON 8 thread.... I think im going to vomit.

I totally dig Reason 7.

[EnGee]

Just to let you know, when RE's are included, reason is the heaviest when it comes to cpu usage of any daw in the marketplace. Reason, even without RE's, is also the most inefficient "load spreading" DAW on the market also. Just that the factory effects and synths ARE low on cpu and take a long time to get reason to it's "choking point". But that choking point is lower than any other DAW on the market. Sorry but it's true.

And rewire into sonar will all be dumped onto one core, fwiw.

It is OK for my i5 processor. Still low cpu in Rewire (with many synths and effects). I'm not planning to buy REs other than the supplied ones, otherwise I wouldn't think of ReWire.

I tested Reason ReWired (with 2 Thor synths, 2 Synchronous, 1 Alligator, 1 Kong, 1 malstrom, 1 subtractor, and some other light effects) with both Sonar and Reaper. Reaper is an excellent match with Reason it seems. It is very easy to preview my Midi files with it cause it has a perfect communication with Reason!
With Sonar also, it was really good. I loaded about 8 vsti synths (including 2 heavy Reaktor ones) and Sonar was distributing the usage across the cores really good (in spite of the possibility of Reason is taking one core). In Sonar the cpu usage was about 20% and in Reaper was less than 4% (just Reason and Xils 3 le) in relaxing power options settings. So, I'm really fine with either host and Reason

[fmr]

It is OK for my i5 processor. Still low cpu in Rewire (with many synths and effects). I'm not planning to buy REs other than the supplied ones, otherwise I wouldn't think of ReWire.

I tested Reason ReWired (with 2 Thor synths, 2 Synchronous, 1 Alligator, 1 Kong, 1 malstrom, 1 subtractor, and some other light effects) with both Sonar and Reaper. Reaper is an excellent match with Reason it seems. It is very easy to preview my Midi files with it cause it has a perfect communication with Reason!
With Sonar also, it was really good. I loaded about 8 vsti synths (including 2 heavy Reaktor ones) and Sonar was distributing the usage across the cores really good (in spite of the possibility of Reason is taking one core). In Sonar the cpu usage was about 20% and in Reaper was less than 4% (just Reason and Xils 3 le) in relaxing power options settings. So, I'm really fine with either host and Reason

Would you mind posting those projects as exemples? I would like to check them in my system. Your COU loads sound great. You could use Dropbox, or just e-mail to me using WeSendIt.

[EnGee]

It is OK for my i5 processor. Still low cpu in Rewire (with many synths and effects). I'm not planning to buy REs other than the supplied ones, otherwise I wouldn't think of ReWire.

I tested Reason ReWired (with 2 Thor synths, 2 Synchronous, 1 Alligator, 1 Kong, 1 malstrom, 1 subtractor, and some other light effects) with both Sonar and Reaper. Reaper is an excellent match with Reason it seems. It is very easy to preview my Midi files with it cause it has a perfect communication with Reason!
With Sonar also, it was really good. I loaded about 8 vsti synths (including 2 heavy Reaktor ones) and Sonar was distributing the usage across the cores really good (in spite of the possibility of Reason is taking one core). In Sonar the cpu usage was about 20% and in Reaper was less than 4% (just Reason and Xils 3 le) in relaxing power options settings. So, I'm really fine with either host and Reason

Would you mind posting those projects as exemples? I would like to check them in my system. Your COU loads sound great. You could use Dropbox, or just e-mail to me using WeSendIt.

Yes sure. They are empty projects (or with some mess midi) just for testing. Do you still want them?

[Edit] I PM'd you [/Edit]

[eXode]

Nobody's "losing their invested dollars", and there's no "mandatory retention" going on. I've given up on Reason, but I can still use it, and all the rack extensions I bought.

Nothing is stopping anybody from simply walking away, and many have.

It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who replies with irrelevant comments, as if they haven't even read the post they are responding to. I see you have ignored being called out on that TWICE.

"called out" by who?!? A Reason fan-boy who couldn't keep up with the conversation (he claimed it was about future-proofing, and I capped that argument in the knees by saying there may not be a future to proof! notice he didn't actually go near any of my points, because he would have looked like an even bigger fool), and a guy who can't even quote properly?!?

Fanboy? Yeah I'm a fanboy, but that doesn't mean that I don't question propellerheads, or agree with everything they do. However when I question them, or leave feedback, I do it in a forum where I know they will listen and not in some random thread on KVR.

It is not I who couldn't keep up with the conversation. I had a conversation with another user which got interrupted by completely irrelevant posts (which you continue to make). You didn't "cap" any argument in the knees, as you don't seem to have the mental capacity to grasp what we are talking about, hence my uninterest in discussing the matter with you any further.

It is not I who make up stories about propellerheads economy, their developer base, or their user base...

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